It looks like both versions use the same cells, so the lower voltage per cell on the 40kWh pack could be to increase the life of the pack. That is required on the smaller pack to compensate, because it will be subject to greater stress throughout its life (the same charging power on both packs, means a smaller C rate on the larger pack, also the same power on the wheels, etc).

Hyundai/LG are clearly designing the battery packs so that use never see more than a very small drop in capacity throughout the life of the car.

Thanks for so much great info. Lots of juice from only one exhibition!

I only don't like to see the wireless charging. This is no time to waste energy efficiency. We need the best efficiency possible. If one is to charge for half an hour, or four hours or more, what trouble is it to plug in the cable? We waste more time with cell phone apps and RFID cards than plugging the cable.

 

It looks like both versions use the same cells, so the lower voltage per cell on the 40kWh pack could be to increase the life of the pack. That is required on the smaller pack to compensate, because it will be subject to greater stress throughout its life (the same charging power on both packs, means a smaller C rate on the larger pack, also the same power on the wheels, etc)...

Maybe. The 64kWh standard version and the 39.2 kWh lite version both use 60Ah cells of the same size and shape. But we don't know if they are the same chemistry. The different nominal voltage may mean that they are not. Neither car company Hyundai or Kia has said anything about the cells. Similarly LG Chem and SK Innovation the two battery companies most likely to have made the cells have not stated the details.

The 64kWh standard version has a maximum power of 150kW whereas the 39.2 kWh lite version only has 100kW. Both have the same Torque 395Nm. I have not seen it stated that the smaller pack will charge at the same power rate as the larger.

Neither car is available for test drives yet. I don't think anyone has even seen a 39.2 kWh car. There is still a lot we don't know.

One small detail I have seen and am pleased with is the option to set the charging limit as a percentage of SOC.



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I believe the new OBC and motor components are the same in both the Kona EV and the Niro EV. (For the 64kWh standard version of each. I haven't seen the lite version).
It is a different design from that used previously in the Ioniq EV and Soul EV.
Those cars both used water cooling. There are pipes running through each section. This has been a cause of problems when hairline fractures in the pipes cause liquid to spill onto the circuit boards.
On the Ioniq this occasionally happens to the EPCU, on the Soul this commonly happens to the OBC.
The new design has no water inlet pipes going into the motor and electrical systems, so I am not sure how they are cooled.

In the first picture you can see the water cooling system just to the left, and the black pipes leading from it.
I just don't know how it connects. I also do not know if this water system is also used for cooling the battery.

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Firstly the Kona EV





The wireless charging is an extra added purely to the demonstration model at the show. It is not standard, nor even available as an option from Hyundai.




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Next the Niro EV. The labels are in Korean sorry.

OBC is on top, EPCU below it, the motor is at the bottom. The High Voltage Junction Box is vertical.

 

JejuSoul, you mentioned that Hyundai has stated they will be using the same modular components in all their new electric vehicles and that you expect the Ioniq to get an upgrade. Can you guess when that will be? 2019 or 2020 Ioniq model? Which will be upgraded?

 

I asked that question to the lead Hyundai sales guy at the Expo. He said, "in the next two years". So I would guess that would be MY2020.

 

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The inlet for the water cooling on a Soul EV looks like this:
It is an OBC just removed from my car.



I can't see such an inlet in the pictures for the Niro EV above. Can anyone else see how the cooling attaches?

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Also just saw this about the battery cells in the Niro EV - http://www.etnews.com/20180502000200

The Niro EV is the first South Korean electric vehicle to have an ' NCM 811 battery. NCM 811, which is developed by SK Innovation and Eco Pro, comprises nickel, cobalt, and manganese of lithium-ion battery at 8:1:1 ratio. As nickel content, which has the greatest impact on increasing energy density, which is increased by 60% to 80%. It has stable surveillance and discharge performance.

If this is the case then the Niro EV has very different cells from the Kona EV. Those are likely to be NCM 622 by LG Chem.

There's a second article about the battery cells here - http://www.etnews.com/20180503000261

 

It is an OBC just removed from my car.

Is that coolant spilled? Ethylene glycol is toxic...

I can't see such an inlet in the pictures for the Niro EV above. Can anyone else see how the cooling attaches?

Could they have decided not to cool the electronics in order to cool the battery? Because if the electronics is hot, it may not be healthy to cool both with the same fluid. Based on your temperature readings on the Soul, do you think the temperatures are compatible?

 

That makes sense though from the information that was floating around the internet before that said Hyundai use LG Chem batteries and Kia uses SK Innovations batteries. That just confirms it.

The question now is who makes the more durable and long lasting battery?

 

Appreciate all the pictures, thanks! Got to say though, ugly charging port door.

 

I wish my Ioniq has a front charging port instead...

I wonder if they will offer OEM battery pack upgrade down the line. If in 5 or 6 years I can upgrade my Ioniq with a new pack and double the range or something for 5 to 8 grand, I might go for it.

 

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These two cars have the same battery capacity, the same battery pack case, the same motor and electronics ....
But it seems the two cars have very different battery cells.
The Kona EV has NCM622 cells from LG Chem that are optimized more for power density.
The Niro EV has NCM811 cells from SK Innovation that are optimized more for energy density.

see - Link to a Korean news site

..The Niro EV is more of a family car - bigger more comfortable - but the acceleration output through the battery management system (BMS) control is relatively low ...
...
The Kona EV cells however allow higher-powered driving. Its body is also smaller, and its agility excellent, which is an advantage for sports driving...
...
In the end, it is analyzed that Niro EV is beneficial to achieve stable driving performance and Kona EV has advantages in higher-powered driving.

 

I think maybe Hyundai wants to gauge which battery is better than the other and make a future decision to stick with one battery maker, LG or SK, therefore have decided to use these next few years as their test case/research to make their decision down the road, that is why one is using a tried and tested cell, and the other is using a newer cell which they don't have clear research to see if it ends up being better to switch to completely?

Here is a link that shows the differences between the two cells, example it says the NCM811 loses some thermal stability by using more nickel: https://pushevs.com/2018/04/02/ncm-811-sk-innovation-vs-lg-chem/

 

Hmm what cells does the Ioniq use and what are they optimised for?

 

NCM 6-2-2. I read it on a older post by JejuSoul.

 

And it's not water. I talked with a Hyundai service engineering last week. It's ethylene glycol on Hyundai. (Maybe a ethylene glycol / water mix).

 

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I think it's a 50-50 mix of ethylene glycol and distilled water. But I didn't get a photo of the label.



The pump for the coolant is called the EWP or Electric Water Pump.

I had a look at some Torque logs of a recent driving session in a Soul EV. I watched the Motor Temperature go up to 55C while driving at 90km/h. This was the lead indicator.
The VMCU MCU Temperature followed this but every time this reached 40C the EWP came on and began cooling it.

What I hadn't done before ( But this thread inspired me to do ) was follow the OBC temperatures at the same time.
When the EWP came on the OBC Water Temp began to rise. Obviously because it is on the same coolant loop.
Next to rise is the OBC Heatsink Temp closely followed by the OBC Inside Temp.

The coolant never went above 37C, The Heat Sink got to 35C and the OBC Inside got to 34C

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The pump (EWP) sits underneath the coolant reservoir. Here's a photo of it.

Here's a picture with the OBC and the High Voltage Junction Box moved so you can see the Coolant Reservoir and EWP beneath.

Here's a schematic of where the EWP moves coolant around.

 

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The battery cell used in the Ioniq EV is probably LG Chem's LQ 1729-A2 43Ah Cell.
see: PDF datasheet for Lithium-Ion 43 Ah L3 LG Chem – LQ 1729-A2 Cell



192 cells * 43Ah * 3.75V = 30.96kWh which confirms that the total capacity of the Ioniq EV is 31kWh.
The energy density of a single cell is 161.25 Wh / 0.966kg = 167Wh/kg
Hence it is probably not NMC622.



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The battery cell used in the I oniq EV is probably LG Chem's LQ 1729-A2 43Ah Cell.

Interesting find. When I look at the date of the document, however, it says it was created on April 12 2015, and the web page has a copyright of 2016. This means nothing, as both date can be faked rather easily, but it does make me doubt.

 

wow - you have an interesting way of thinking.

I found this battery information here - https://speakev.com/threads/kona-battery-pack-spec.110601/

But that of course could have been faked after the fact too. Or perhaps it was a false lead to keep us away from the true info. It does make me doubt.

 

Well, now that I read that thread, and re-read what you wrote, well, maybe that is the battery used in the current Ioniq. The date of April 2015 would make sense for a car that went into production in 2017.

 

for a car that went into production in 2017.

I thought the Ioniq Electric went into production around mid-2016.

 

Yes, I test drove (and immediately ordered) one in November 2016

 

the hybrid went onsale in Europe September 10, uk October 16 and korea a few months earlier late test models were on the road for most of 2016 doing road tests so a 2015 post about batteries is totally feasible

I believe the hybrid and EV share the same battery module within the pack just different numbers of them

 

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The EV went on sale in June 2016.



I first drove it in September 2016 - 1750km Test Drive in Ioniq Electric - Hyundai IONIQ EV Forum

 

Nice linked thread. Thanks!

 

Fantastic, the swedish study is specifically about discovering internal impedance, which is about the most important thing we wished to know... and they tested a comparable battery.

Of course, as the datasheet says, these are test samples, not mass produced, but as the datasheet says, it should provide general details.

 

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Here's a photo of the N iro EV OBC / EPCU / Motor that I posted earlier.
This will be the same as the new Kona Electric and any updated Ioniq Electric.



I can't see any inlet pipes for the liquid coolant. But they must be there, because according to this schematic the coolant does go through this system. And unlike the Ioniq Electric the battery is liquid cooled and liquid heated. ( Ioniq Electric is air cooled and heated by an electric plate inside the battery )



Note that the battery section of this cooling loop can be separated from the motor section using the two 3-way valves. There are water pumps in both sections. The main cooling system at the front is for the OBC / EPCU / Motor. There is no heater needed for this section. There is a separate chiller and a heater in the battery section.

 

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That car which I assume to be an Ioniq Hybrid seems to have the same grille as the new Kona Hybrid.
Let's hope the new Ioniq Electric gets all the same features as the Kona Electric.

Here's a couple of recent Hyundai EV links I found interesting.

"This is why I believe FCEV and EV will be the two main powertrains for a while, but ultimately, FCEV will prevail," Lee said. "And this is because I sometimes feel doubt about EVs, especially about its worn-out batteries, even though I'm leading Hyundai's eco-friendly segments including EVs." Hyundai Motor Senior Vice President Lee Ki-sang said

from Hyundai Motor bets big on fuel cell EVs

and an interview with the Hyundai NZ boss who talks about an upcoming Santa Fe PHEV

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Sad to hear they are still hoping for Fuel Cells such as Honda/Toyota, and other manufacturers. Anything to keep the oil and gas plants running.

 

Yea, I just don't get the Fuel Cell argument. Use electricity to make hydrogen --> Convert hydrogen back to electricity to run a car. Is charging and discharging a battery more inefficient than FC technology? EV batteries are about 90% efficient to charge (and getting better), eg I need about 31.1 kWh to fully charge my IONIQ battery - from which I'll be able to extract 28kWh of energy. What sort of efficiencies are being achieved with the FC process?

OB

 

I have heard rumours of a bigger battery in the facelift Ioniq due about 2020

but I don't think they can get the 64KWh one in so likely a 40KWh version from the Kona EV

 

The upgrade of the battery pack will be done for MY2020 Ioniq
The information is confirmed by Gil Castillo, Hyundai’s senior group manager for alternative vehicle strategy

"The Ioniq’s range will improve at the model-year change. It will get bigger"
"It will be a nice improvement but not like the Kona’s range"
Source : https://insideevs.com/next-year-hyundai-ioniq-ev-more-range/

 

it will also coincide with the facelift / mid life redesign which is expected also at the MY2020

 

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It seems all the new EVs from Hyundai and Kia will be using the same battery and powertrain. (With two variants 64kWh and 39kWh)
We now have confirmation that the internal workings for the Hyundai Kona Electric and the Kia Niro EV are the same.
See - https://github.com/JejuSoul/OBD-PIDs-for-HKMC-EVs/tree/master/Hyundai Kona EV & Kia Niro EV

I am confident that both the upcoming new 64kWh Soul EV and the 39kWh Ioniq Electric will have the same system.

 

What range will the new 39 kWh Ioniq Electric be able to achieve? Rumors have it at 200 miles EPA cycle, but any truth to this?