Hyundai IONIQ Forum banner
1 - 20 of 79 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
-
Am posting this in the Ioniq EV forum because Hyundai has stated they will be using the same modular components in all their new electric vehicles.
The first two EVs to show this new architecture are the Kona EV and the Niro EV, but next year I expect to see both an updated Ioniq EV and a new Soul EV based on this.
This first post will show the new battery layout, in the next post I will show the new OBC and motor components.

--------------------------------------------------

Here are some photos of the Kona EV I took at EVTrend Motor Show in Seoul in April. Plus a couple I found on the web.
The cutaway model on display is of the 64kWh version.











I counted the cells! There are 288. The cells are laid out 3 in parallel to form a 3 cell group, 96 groups in series.
Under the floor are 6 modules of 10 cell groups, under the back seat are 4 modules of 9 cell groups.
(6*10*3) + (4*9*3) = 288

The nominal voltage of each cell is 3.7V, the rated capacity of each cell is 60Ah
Thus the nominal capacity of the 64 version is 3.7*60*288 = 63.94kWh

I didn't see a 39.2kWh Kona EV on display. But I did see an image of its battery pack.
The 4 modules under the seat are empty.
Under the floor are 6 modules of 15 cell groups. But for this version the cells are laid out 2 in parallel to form cell pairs.
Hence this version has 180 cells.
For the math to work out the nominal voltage of each cell has to be 3.63V
I don't know why it is lower than the 3.7V of the 64kWh version.
3.63*60*180 =39.24kWh

The official specs are here - https://www.hyundai.com/kr/ko/vehicles/kona-electric/specifications

KONA Electric 복합 5.6km/kWh(도심 6.2km/kWh, 고속도로 5.0km/kWh) | CO2 배출량 0g/km | 축전지 정격전압(용량) : 356V(180Ah) | 공차중량 : 1,685kg | 1회 충전 주행 거리 - 복합 406km(도심 444km. 고속도로 359km)

KONA Electric_Lite 패키지 복합 5.8km/kWh(도심 6.5km/kWh, 고속도로 5.1km/kWh) | CO2 배출량 0g/km | 축전지 정격전압(용량) : 327V(120Ah) | 공차중량 : 1,540kg | 1회 충전 주행 거리 - 복합 254km(도심 282km. 고속도로 221km)
356V / 96 = 3.7V : 60Ah*3 = 180Ah
327 / 90 = 3.63V : 60Ah*2 = 120Ah

--------------------------------------------------

The Niro EV went on show at the 5th Jeju EV Expo -



I don't have any internal details on the battery pack other than the capacity is identical, but also externally it is identical to the Kona EV.

Both are the same size and shape, and have ridging showing the module layout.



Both have a cover under the front passenger seat to access the Power Relay Assembly



-
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
424 Posts
It looks like both versions use the same cells, so the lower voltage per cell on the 40kWh pack could be to increase the life of the pack. That is required on the smaller pack to compensate, because it will be subject to greater stress throughout its life (the same charging power on both packs, means a smaller C rate on the larger pack, also the same power on the wheels, etc).

Hyundai/LG are clearly designing the battery packs so that use never see more than a very small drop in capacity throughout the life of the car.

Thanks for so much great info. Lots of juice from only one exhibition!

I only don't like to see the wireless charging. This is no time to waste energy efficiency. We need the best efficiency possible. If one is to charge for half an hour, or four hours or more, what trouble is it to plug in the cable? We waste more time with cell phone apps and RFID cards than plugging the cable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
It looks like both versions use the same cells, so the lower voltage per cell on the 40kWh pack could be to increase the life of the pack. That is required on the smaller pack to compensate, because it will be subject to greater stress throughout its life (the same charging power on both packs, means a smaller C rate on the larger pack, also the same power on the wheels, etc)...
Maybe. The 64kWh standard version and the 39.2 kWh lite version both use 60Ah cells of the same size and shape. But we don't know if they are the same chemistry. The different nominal voltage may mean that they are not. Neither car company Hyundai or Kia has said anything about the cells. Similarly LG Chem and SK Innovation the two battery companies most likely to have made the cells have not stated the details.

The 64kWh standard version has a maximum power of 150kW whereas the 39.2 kWh lite version only has 100kW. Both have the same Torque 395Nm. I have not seen it stated that the smaller pack will charge at the same power rate as the larger.

Neither car is available for test drives yet. I don't think anyone has even seen a 39.2 kWh car. There is still a lot we don't know.

One small detail I have seen and am pleased with is the option to set the charging limit as a percentage of SOC.



-
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
-
I believe the new OBC and motor components are the same in both the Kona EV and the Niro EV. (For the 64kWh standard version of each. I haven't seen the lite version).
It is a different design from that used previously in the Ioniq EV and Soul EV.
Those cars both used water cooling. There are pipes running through each section. This has been a cause of problems when hairline fractures in the pipes cause liquid to spill onto the circuit boards.
On the Ioniq this occasionally happens to the EPCU, on the Soul this commonly happens to the OBC.
The new design has no water inlet pipes going into the motor and electrical systems, so I am not sure how they are cooled.

In the first picture you can see the water cooling system just to the left, and the black pipes leading from it.
I just don't know how it connects. I also do not know if this water system is also used for cooling the battery.

--------------------------------------------------

Firstly the Kona EV





The wireless charging is an extra added purely to the demonstration model at the show. It is not standard, nor even available as an option from Hyundai.




--------------------------------------------------

Next the Niro EV. The labels are in Korean sorry.

OBC is on top, EPCU below it, the motor is at the bottom. The High Voltage Junction Box is vertical.













 

·
Registered
Joined
·
592 Posts
JejuSoul, you mentioned that Hyundai has stated they will be using the same modular components in all their new electric vehicles and that you expect the Ioniq to get an upgrade. Can you guess when that will be? 2019 or 2020 Ioniq model? Which will be upgraded?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
JejuSoul, you mentioned that Hyundai has stated they will be using the same modular components in all their new electric vehicles and that you expect the Ioniq to get an upgrade. Can you guess when that will be? 2019 or 2020 Ioniq model? Which will be upgraded?
I asked that question to the lead Hyundai sales guy at the Expo. He said, "in the next two years". So I would guess that would be MY2020.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
-
The inlet for the water cooling on a Soul EV looks like this:
It is an OBC just removed from my car.



I can't see such an inlet in the pictures for the Niro EV above. Can anyone else see how the cooling attaches?

------------------------------------------------------

Also just saw this about the battery cells in the Niro EV - http://www.etnews.com/20180502000200
The Niro EV is the first South Korean electric vehicle to have an ' NCM 811 battery. NCM 811, which is developed by SK Innovation and Eco Pro, comprises nickel, cobalt, and manganese of lithium-ion battery at 8:1:1 ratio. As nickel content, which has the greatest impact on increasing energy density, which is increased by 60% to 80%. It has stable surveillance and discharge performance.
If this is the case then the Niro EV has very different cells from the Kona EV. Those are likely to be NCM 622 by LG Chem.

There's a second article about the battery cells here - http://www.etnews.com/20180503000261
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
592 Posts
That makes sense though from the information that was floating around the internet before that said Hyundai use LG Chem batteries and Kia uses SK Innovations batteries. That just confirms it.

The question now is who makes the more durable and long lasting battery?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
264 Posts
I wish my Ioniq has a front charging port instead...

I wonder if they will offer OEM battery pack upgrade down the line. If in 5 or 6 years I can upgrade my Ioniq with a new pack and double the range or something for 5 to 8 grand, I might go for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
-
These two cars have the same battery capacity, the same battery pack case, the same motor and electronics ....
But it seems the two cars have very different battery cells.
The Kona EV has NCM622 cells from LG Chem that are optimized more for power density.
The Niro EV has NCM811 cells from SK Innovation that are optimized more for energy density.

see - Link to a Korean news site

..The Niro EV is more of a family car - bigger more comfortable - but the acceleration output through the battery management system (BMS) control is relatively low ...
...
The Kona EV cells however allow higher-powered driving. Its body is also smaller, and its agility excellent, which is an advantage for sports driving...
...
In the end, it is analyzed that Niro EV is beneficial to achieve stable driving performance and Kona EV has advantages in higher-powered driving.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
592 Posts
-
These two cars have the same battery capacity, the same battery pack case, the same motor and electronics ....
But it seems the two cars have very different battery cells.
The Kona EV has NCM622 cells from LG Chem that are optimized more for power density.
The Niro EV has NCM811 cells from SK Innovation that are optimized more for energy density.

see - Link to a Korean news site
I think maybe Hyundai wants to gauge which battery is better than the other and make a future decision to stick with one battery maker, LG or SK, therefore have decided to use these next few years as their test case/research to make their decision down the road, that is why one is using a tried and tested cell, and the other is using a newer cell which they don't have clear research to see if it ends up being better to switch to completely?

Here is a link that shows the differences between the two cells, example it says the NCM811 loses some thermal stability by using more nickel: https://pushevs.com/2018/04/02/ncm-811-sk-innovation-vs-lg-chem/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hmm what cells does the Ioniq use and what are they optimised for?
The Ioniq EV has a battery by LG Chem. I am not sure of the cell chemistry.
It has 192 polymer pouch type cells laid out in a series string of 96 sets of 2 parallel cells.
The rated capacity of the pack is 78Ah Hence the rated capacity of each cell is 39Ah.
The total energy capacity is 31kWh ( What I have heard from people who have heard from LG, this has not been confirmed by a lab test.)

The Ioniq EV battery pack is 31 kWh and weighs 271.8kg -> Gravimetric Energy Density = 114 Wh/kg
The Ioniq EV will fast charge at 70kW.

The Bolt EV also has a battery by LG Chem. The cells are NMC 622.
It has 288 polymer pouch type cells laid out in a series string of 96 sets of 3 parallel cells.
The rated capacity of the pack is 180Ah Hence the rated capacity of each cell is 60Ah.
The total energy capacity maybe 60kWh ( There is a lot of argument about this because the sticker on the case says 57kWh, but I favor 60kWh because I have driven it from 100% to nearly zero and seen 57kWh as usable capacity. GM also stands by the 60kWh figure.)
The Bolt battery pack is 60 kWh and weighs 435kg -> Gravimetric Energy Density = 138 Wh/kg
The Bolt EV will fast charge at 56kWh see - https://www.greencarreports.com/new...350-kw-fast-charging-station-in-chicopee-mass

Clearly the Ioniq EV is optimised for power density. It is able to charge faster without damaging the pack despite not having liquid cooling.
I assume any new version of the Ioniq EV will use the Kona cells not the Niro ones.
It makes sense that they will continue to optimise for power density.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
424 Posts
It is an OBC just removed from my car.

Is that coolant spilled? Ethylene glycol is toxic...

I can't see such an inlet in the pictures for the Niro EV above. Can anyone else see how the cooling attaches?
Could they have decided not to cool the electronics in order to cool the battery? Because if the electronics is hot, it may not be healthy to cool both with the same fluid. Based on your temperature readings on the Soul, do you think the temperatures are compatible?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
..Could they have decided not to cool the electronics in order to cool the battery? Because if the electronics is hot, it may not be healthy to cool both with the same fluid. Based on your temperature readings on the Soul, do you think the temperatures are compatible?
Thanks. That makes sense. The temperature of the electronics gets to between 40C and 50C. Obviously you can't pump coolant at this temperature through the battery.
So, either they have two cooling systems and can cool both or they can only cool the battery and not the electronics.
Given that we can see one coolant reservoir and one water pump system I think they only have the one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
-
I think it's a 50-50 mix of ethylene glycol and distilled water. But I didn't get a photo of the label.



The pump for the coolant is called the EWP or Electric Water Pump.

I had a look at some Torque logs of a recent driving session in a Soul EV. I watched the Motor Temperature go up to 55C while driving at 90km/h. This was the lead indicator.
The VMCU MCU Temperature followed this but every time this reached 40C the EWP came on and began cooling it.

What I hadn't done before ( But this thread inspired me to do ) was follow the OBC temperatures at the same time.
When the EWP came on the OBC Water Temp began to rise. Obviously because it is on the same coolant loop.
Next to rise is the OBC Heatsink Temp closely followed by the OBC Inside Temp.

The coolant never went above 37C, The Heat Sink got to 35C and the OBC Inside got to 34C

-----------------------------------------------------

The pump (EWP) sits underneath the coolant reservoir. Here's a photo of it.



Here's a picture with the OBC and the High Voltage Junction Box moved so you can see the Coolant Reservoir and EWP beneath.



Here's a schematic of where the EWP moves coolant around.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
-
The battery cell used in the Ioniq EV is probably LG Chem's LQ 1729-A2 43Ah Cell.
see: PDF datasheet for Lithium-Ion 43 Ah L3 LG Chem – LQ 1729-A2 Cell



192 cells * 43Ah * 3.75V = 30.96kWh which confirms that the total capacity of the Ioniq EV is 31kWh.
The energy density of a single cell is 161.25 Wh / 0.966kg = 167Wh/kg
Hence it is probably not NMC622.



-
 
1 - 20 of 79 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top