Fair enough, but Highway Driver Assist isn't intended to be on par with Autopilot. It is merely an attempt to relieve some of the stress on long highway drives, and to that goal, it does reasonably well...about on par with most driver assist solutions. To find something closer to FSD, but better than Autopilot, look to GM Supercruise or Ford BlueCruise.

Digital key is something I setup but really never use. I keep the fob in my pocket and it works every time. I get the impression many owners find digital key useful. My trunk (tailgate equivalent on I6) opens more often than I would like. I keep wrestling with disabling the auto open function, but every time I do, I have a need... but when needed, it has worked well.

Bear in mind, Hyundai isn't a software company the way Tesla is. It is a matter of focus. Hyundai is an old school auto maker, with legacy thinking. Their next-gen infotainment system (PLEOS) sounds promising, build on Android Automotive OS (AAOS), it will have a lot of hooks for 3rd party app development, which like iPhone and Android phones, means a supporting industry to supply apps. It also envisions bringing CarPlay 2, with iPhones having the ability to take over all of the screens, and most of the controls. While Apple's interface may not be the most ideal, the benefit will be a consistent interface across multiple cars...like rental cars having familiar UI.

Like with many consumer electronic products, competition is a cat and mouse game. One supplier will have a superior solution for a while, others will catch up and exceed, then the original will update and take the lead again, and so on. That is the promise open source and common platforms offer. Hyundai's PLEOS (AAOS + other things) appears to be embracing Red Hat Automotive for the vehicle OS. So, both of those platforms will put them on even footing with other auto makers, using industry standard, best practice approaches to things. Differentiation will come in the form of attention to UI, and how far they go to embrace their party solutions. Sure, it will only be on new models, that is the legacy auto maker way.

There will always be + - between brands. Nothing is perfect. My prior car was a Chevy Bolt, and in some ways, it had some things that were better, and some that were worse than my Ioniq 6. Our needs changed with retirement, so road trips are now more important, the I6 is incredibly better for that use case with fast charging and more comfort. But around town, the Bolt was clearly a better EV.

I hope you find in the long run that the Ioniq 5 meets your needs.

 

I often see Amazon reviews that only give one star to a product that isn't the product the buyer actually wanted. It's not a fault of the product just because the buyer bought Chevy floor mats for their Ford. To use an exaggerated illustration, it's like criticizing an air fryer because it won't keep my beer cold. Well, it was never meant to. Same with criticizing HDA2 because it's not autopilot. It doesn't try to be autopilot, but it is helpful if your expectations are in line with its capabilities.

Digital key lasted less than two days for me before I shut off that annoyance. I couldn't even be in the same driveway with my car without it unlocking, relocking, unlocking, etc.

The auto tailgate was also a colossal PITA. I had to close the hatch on the way back from the mailbox every time unless I remembered to leave the fob in the house.

It's still a good car but it would have been a nicer car had I not experienced the Model Y prior.

Yup! Tesla does some slick things. Some are really useful but IMHO, they do a lot of slick things just because they are slick rather than because they are better. If I could get an M3 for its efficiency and not have to use a screen for every function from putting the car in gear to adjusting wiper speed, I'd probably be all over it.

Not to make light of anyone's convictions, but I'm quite certain that every CEO of every company does stuff I do not or would not approve of, so I can't let that make my buying decisions. I'd have to walk ... barefoot and naked.

 

I often see Amazon reviews that only give one star to a product that isn't the product the buyer actually wanted. It's not a fault of the product just because the buyer bought Chevy floor mats for their Ford. To use an exaggerated illustration, it's like criticizing an air fryer because it won't keep my beer cold. Well, it was never meant to. Same with criticizing HDA2 because it's not autopilot. It doesn't try to be autopilot, but it is helpful if your expectations are in line with its capabilities.

Digital key lasted less than two days for me before I shut off that annoyance. I couldn't even be in the same driveway with my car without it unlocking, relocking, unlocking, etc.

The auto tailgate was also a colossal PITA. I had to close the hatch on the way back from the mailbox every time unless I remembered to leave the fob in the house.


Yup! Tesla does some slick things. Some are really useful but IMHO, they do a lot of slick things just because they are slick rather than because they are better. If I could get an M3 for its efficiency and not have to use a screen for every function from putting the car in gear to adjusting wiper speed, I'd probably be all over it.

Not to make light of anyone's convictions, but I'm quite certain that every CEO of every company does stuff I do not or would not approve of, so I can't let that make my buying decisions. I'd have to walk ... barefoot and naked.

We had a Tesla Model 3 for 3 1/2 years. I tend toward being a very mild Luddite but had no problems with the Tesla.
Ddid not want FSD , but our grandson like the fart sounds.
Quite happy with the 2025 Ioniq 5.

 

I was drawn to the ioniq line mostly because I just wanted a car that keeps the functions of a normal ICE car but happens to be electric. No fancy "do everything on the screen" or "the turn signals are on the wheel now" stuff. There's a case for cars as tech products, and certainly the Tesla stuff is cool and handy (will never understand why there isn't an autolock when walking away) but for the most part I enjoy that it doesn't try to reinvent the wheel.

 

That sounds like me! I just wanted the best car for car functions. Not so interested in software gimmicks. I think I can count on one hand the number of features I wish my I5 had from my in-laws MY.

 

You cut off your nose, despite your face

 

It’s ‘Cut off your nose to SPITE your face.’
FWIW

 

I agree objectively Tesla is a better vehicle, because of the software. It's just way more polished and easy to use. Hyundai basically nailed everything else but the software. 800V and super fast charge times is fabulous and better than Tesla. Ride comfort is better than the older Tesla 3 and Y (The newest Tesla's have basically caught up).

I think my I6 is about 80% there, it's just the software that needs work. Perhaps the latest infotainment system will be better, who knows. I do know there is basically a 0% chance they will back port it to my car, which is unfortunate. Not something Tesla had issues with. They've continued to update and upgrade the software stack even on older cars.

It's obvious in the current version they took the Tesla capabilities and made a TODO list. They got most of the way through a very rough draft on their TODO list before they had to ship, and they never got back around to do the rest. Now they are replacing it with a new system. I hope they managed to get through their TODO list with the new system, or will at least stop replacing the base system and start iterating on the TODO list again.

I've never had issues with digital key on my I6. I use it all the time and works great. I just did a 1,000 mile road trip with nothing but the digital key. My larger iPhone 16 requires careful placement on the charger, but otherwise it just works great.

It's obvious they were headed in the right direction, they just didn't get to finish.

 

I fail to understand why most manufacturers (Tesla has great software I'm told) work to do something they're not good at when both Apple and Android have excellent Auto software and why attempt to outdo Apple and Google with their mapping expertise. I believe Hyundai is going to Google maps (and Android Auto???) on their 2026 and later models.

 

Same car except AWD. Had a 2021 Y LR. I5 is faster (But does not matter to us)

I agree the door lock situation is frustrating. We turned off approach to unlock, it was so inconsistent. I really don't see why the car has to be off to lock it. If I push the lock button on the FOB I want the car off and locked. Just do it.

The highway lane keeping is bad for us too. But it was worse on our Y. At least the traffic aware cruise control in works well, no slamming on the brakes all the time. The Y was unusable by the end (Traded it for the I5 Feb this year.)

The best part: just did a road trip from Spokane to SF CA and back, via Seattle. 1000 miles each way. Charging was only 1/3 the time as the Y on the same trip. Didn't even have time to get a sandwich and bio break for most stops. Much better than the Y, almost equal to ICE (it is for me, I need to stop more than the car did).

I'd never go back to Tesla even if Elon and his treason never existed.

 

The only thing that's better is it's better in "MPG" but that's expected as it's a slower car. What I gripe about most is just how "dumb" the car is compared to the MY.

Are you comparing

Ioniq 5 RWD to MY RWD
Ioniq 5 AWD to MY AWD
Ioniq 5 N to MY Performance

I think you will find performance similar between each.

How do you find the Ioniq 5 as an actual car vs the MY. There are lot of both locally and most people I know who have tried both prefer the build quality and ride in the Ioniq 5.

No doubt the MY is smarter but many prefer the more traditional interface in the Ioniq 5.

 

You also didn't mention the amazing attention to detail in reducing cabin noise in the Ionic 5,6, and 9. There is little to no cabin noise in all the Ionic family plus I'm told the seats are a lot more comfortable.

 

I do too many road trips to ever consider again a 400V car for our main car. 400V is fine for in town, but not on the road. That's my other big issue besides the driver interface.

 

We had a Tesla Model 3 for 3 1/2 years. I tend toward being a very mild Luddite but had no problems with the Tesla.

I'm nearly the opposite. I'm a 72 year old geek. I love tech. I just don't want it to get in the way when I'm driving. Sure, I'd soon learn how the Tesla interface works, but I'd always be annoyed at how many steps it takes. I'm also an efficiency nut. If tech doesn't make it easier, it's not good tech. That's why I was so thrilled that the '25 Ioniq 5 has buttons for the seat heating/cooling.

Ddid not want FSD , but our grandson like the fart sounds.

Why don't all cars have fart sounds??!! That's GREAT tech. It would make me giggle every time.

Quite happy with the 2025 Ioniq 5.

ME TOO!!!

 

We never have an issue with rear hatch opening or not opening automatically because there is no automatic opening function on the SE model. Maybe if I'd ever had an automatic hatch opener/closer I'd realize what I was missing.
I also appreciate not having a full glass roof and that isn't an option with tesla.
I qualify as an old school driver, up until 2020 I shifted gears manually, unlocked doors with an actual key and opened windows with a rotating crank. I do appreciate many of the new features on our Ioniq 5 like back up cameras, rear cross traffic alerts, adaptive cruise control, automatic emergency braking and not having to shift gears. I don't mind carrying a key fob or having to press a button to start or stop. The SE provides what we need without adding a lot of things we don't. Although that heads up display does sound pretty cool. It is nice to have a choice.

 

I also appreciate not having a full glass roof and that isn't an option with tesla.

That's why we got the SEL last year. Glass roof was a non starter for me. I forgot about that with the Tesla. It's another reason I don't want one. I've seen the 3rd party shades and they sure look tacky.

However, not getting the glass roof meant not getting a lot of stuff we got used to in our Bolt EUV Premier. So I bit the bullet and got the Limited last month so we'd have those goodies on road trips. Now both our cars have push button control for seat and steering wheel temperatures and ventilated front seats, which you get used to in a hurry in Florida. But I do notice a little more heat load in the summer with the glass roof. We only open it to demonstrate for guests. Back seat passengers quickly ask for me to close it. I hope it doesn't crack or leak. 🥴

 

The digital key is probably my biggest gripe, it's just so in consistent. I walk up to the car, half the time it'll unlock, the other half, nothing. And now, it's completely not working for 3 days already and upon checking my digital key, it's just not connecting.

Try rebooting your phone. This happens to me from time to time (I have a Google Pixel 6 Pro), and rebooting the phone fixes it. It's conceivable that something less drastic (like clearing Google Wallet's cache or re-starting it) would work, too, but the problem is infrequent enough for me that I haven't taken the time to experiment.

The real problem with this is that it could be a safety issue. If you need to get into your car quickly (say, because you're being chased by a bear), rebooting the phone is not a good option!

 

I drove a friend's Model 3 and was amazed that nearly everything is controlled by one "iPad". I knew then that I would never purchase a Tesla. I need some physical buttons! I also think physical buttons are safer. I was also not impressed with the build quality of my friend's Model 3. I am happy with our I6 lane keeping function and the adaptive cruise control. Sometimes when the road is not busy, I completely take my hands off the wheel. The car drives itself with no issues to date. And as others have mentioned, the "800V" battery is great for fast charging while away from home. I also don't personally care about a digital key and auto lock when walking away. But, that's just my opinion.

 

I moved from an MX to the 5 (a little bit due to car age, but mostly due to the toxic nature of the leader). We also have an EQA in the family, but have owned multiple leafs too. I think an earlier comment about the difference between a company with expertise in software and a traditional manufacturer is a good one and I'd like to expand on it. Tesla really knows software, and it shows in their UIs and updates. The car is constantly getting better and adding new features in a way that other manufacturers cannot (but want to). This is both good and bad.

Let me give some examples:
A few years ago they were able to adjust braking performance remotely. This means that many major components in the car is networked (in some fashion) and can have their firmware updated over the air. This requires changes in the core design of those components and agreement and sharing of firmware and update procedures from the whole supply chain. It will take years for the other manufacturers to get there, if ever.

Throughout the life of the MX it was still getting firmware and software updates several times a year. After several years, I did have to upgrade the computer to continue to allow major new features like autopilot upgrades, but it was an option they supported. Completely new features would arrive regularly, and the UI would refresh occasionally (not always for the best). Traditional car manufacturers are still treating their cars as units they sell and fix, not upgrade (mostly). If I want major new features, I have to buy a new car. Further, during the design phase of a car, the computer hardware is always spec'ed out to be just enough to provide ok UI performance with zero extra performance (why bother). This means that new features would likely overload the existing system degrading performance and so can't be done. Further... what they consider "ok UI performance" is, IMHO awful. 1-3 second delays on button press is bad UX, and you would never see that on a phone.

Tesla sentry mode and dash cam were genius - just plug a USB drive into the USB port and you are good to go. Other manufacturers have tried and completely failed to make this work so well and so simply, even though they often have similar camera hardware around the car.

Lastly most car manufacturers make quite bad UIs, which is one reason that CarPlay/Android Auto are so popular (the others include continuity and app range). Compare the beautiful, smooth, and information-rich UI of Google/Apple Maps vs the wireframe clunkiness of most other car mapping software - its like night and day (yes - I know some of you like it... but ewwww). Tesla's UI and app landscape were good enough that I didn't need CarPlay (not that they ever offered it sadly). AppleMusic, podcasts, beautiful maps with very effective charging planning are all built in. The i5 and EQA's built in charging planning is so bad it's laughable.

Now Tesla isn't perfect.

• Their brand is severely tarnished
• They have gone too far towards touch screen UIs (trying to hit a tiny icon while bouncing along an NZ road is frustrating), and tying all simple functions to voice is slow/painful.
• Does anyone remember the incredibly stupid tiny touch screen horn on the steering wheel? Ever tried to hit that when you are about to crash? Fortunately they fixed that in software.
• Their practices around data access/retention are awful.
• Did I mention their toxic leader?

Sorry for the diatribe, but it's an interesting topic, to me anyway.

 

I moved from an MX to the 5 (a little bit due to car age, but mostly due to the toxic nature of the leader). We also have an EQA in the family, but have owned multiple leafs too. I think an earlier comment about the difference between a company with expertise in software and a traditional manufacturer is a good one and I'd like to expand on it. Tesla really knows software, and it shows in their UIs and updates. The car is constantly getting better and adding new features in a way that other manufacturers cannot (but want to). This is both good and bad.

Let me give some examples:
A few years ago they were able to adjust braking performance remotely. This means that many major components in the car is networked (in some fashion) and can have their firmware updated over the air. This requires changes in the core design of those components and agreement and sharing of firmware and update procedures from the whole supply chain. It will take years for the other manufacturers to get there, if ever.

Throughout the life of the MX it was still getting firmware and software updates several times a year. After several years, I did have to upgrade the computer to continue to allow major new features like autopilot upgrades, but it was an option they supported. Completely new features would arrive regularly, and the UI would refresh occasionally (not always for the best). Traditional car manufacturers are still treating their cars as units they sell and fix, not upgrade (mostly). If I want major new features, I have to buy a new car. Further, during the design phase of a car, the computer hardware is always spec'ed out to be just enough to provide ok UI performance with zero extra performance (why bother). This means that new features would likely overload the existing system degrading performance and so can't be done. Further... what they consider "ok UI performance" is, IMHO awful. 1-3 second delays on button press is bad UX, and you would never see that on a phone.

Tesla sentry mode and dash cam were genius - just plug a USB drive into the USB port and you are good to go. Other manufacturers have tried and completely failed to make this work so well and so simply, even though they often have similar camera hardware around the car.

Lastly most car manufacturers make quite bad UIs, which is one reason that CarPlay/Android Auto are so popular (the others include continuity and app range). Compare the beautiful, smooth, and information-rich UI of Google/Apple Maps vs the wireframe clunkiness of most other car mapping software - its like night and day (yes - I know some of you like it... but ewwww). Tesla's UI and app landscape were good enough that I didn't need CarPlay (not that they ever offered it sadly). AppleMusic, podcasts, beautiful maps with very effective charging planning are all built in. The i5 and EQA's built in charging planning is so bad it's laughable.

Now Tesla isn't perfect.

• Their brand is severely tarnished
• They have gone too far towards touch screen UIs (trying to hit a tiny icon while bouncing along an NZ road is frustrating), and tying all simple functions to voice is slow/painful.
• Does anyone remember the incredibly stupid tiny touch screen horn on the steering wheel? Ever tried to hit that when you are about to crash? Fortunately they fixed that in software.
• Their practices around data access/retention are awful.
• Did I mention their toxic leader?

Sorry for the diatribe, but it's an interesting topic, to me anyway.

Thanks for the perspective from a T owner point of view. You are probably quite right on most of this.

Legacy Auto (basically anyone other than Tesla) tended to spend ~5 years before launch to design and engineer the car, going through multiple prototypes to validate things. I think this was primarily due to a vertical approach, the engineering and design teams for a particular model (Toyota Camry for example) would be involved in nearly every aspect of the car, save perhaps shared components like engines and transmissions. Tesla takes more of an interactive (agile) approach, common in software development. So they have teams designing shared components, even platforms upon which model dev teams can build their cars. GM announced this approach in 2018/2019 and has a platform team designing chassis, motors, electronics, batteries with enough flexible options for different sized cars. So a Hummer with a 200kWh pack uses all of the same battery components as the 100kWh models, but stacks the 100kWh packs on top of each other. Interestingly, they also switch between series/parallel orientation of the two 400V packs to enable 800V charging, then revert to 2 100kWh 400V packs for operating.

When GM adopted their new cadence, they claimed new model dev time would be compressed to about 18 months, because the underlying platform dev teams were already ahead of the game with constant improvement cycles. Tesla of course, really doesn't follow the legacy model, in fact iterations are introduce mid-year, in other words, they don't really have "model years" in the same sense as legacy auto. Further, as you stated, they design with some forethought about future enhancements, rather than take the planned obsolescence approach traditional companies take.

I have heard many complaints over the years about updates killing features too. Regen was once stable with various levels, then they went to an on/off approach which upset some owners.

I think Tesla'a approach is appealing to legacy auto, but change is like turning the Titanic in some of these organizations. I expect they will eventually close the gaps.

 

If you start with the assumption that most all driver controls have to be consolidated on one touch screen, the resulting Tesla UI within that screen is very good. A better UI is not what led Tesla to the one touch screen design. That was driven by cutting manufacturing costs. IMHO the overall UI or driver experience suffers as a result.

 

An issue that I rarely see mentioned (I have a friend with a Tesla M3) is the same thing that would keep me away from the Limited is the "Panoramic" Roof - i.e. a big glass (Plexiglass?) window that takes away headroom and requires a full time closed shade as in Southern NV the sun shines 300+ days a year and 4-5 of those months averages 100 degrees F in the day time. That and the 20" (18" is ideal as it has a smoother ride and up to 15% better mileage - 45 more in RWD trim at least in ideal/EPA mileage ratings) wheels should be options NOT part of the overall trim levels. I also don't understand the power/60 times one upmanship of most EV makers. Unless you're a Corvette/Supra/Porsche type of driver the rest of us don't need sub 5.0 (often 4.0 or less) 60 times to drive our cars in a normal manner.

 

I chose to stay away from Tesla due to Musk's antics

Good for you!

 

Hi. I see y u don’t want another MY, your words. The Ioniq 5 you have may be unlike ours which is a new 2022 Ltd, AWD with glass roof. After 3000 km we are more than pleased we chose it from others of similar size, power etc. The Y was one of those under consideration. We have no regrets at all. I won’t list observations after riding in and driving a Y. The I5 is just great. I’ll say no more. There are likely some really good Chinese EVS about hit the market which will take things to the next level. No all, but many.

 

My wife got me a 2018 Tesla Model 3 as a birthday gift back in 2018 (great wife, wonderful gift). I liked the vehicle but over the 6½ years I owned it, its idiosyncrasies* became more and more annoying to me so we traded it in for a 2025 Ioniq6 Limited last February and haven’t looked back. Although she got it for me and would ride in it, Mrs. SalisburySam steadfastly refused to ever drive it. And that was a car that had control stalks, radar, and ultrasonic sensors, and a large horn pad in the center of the steering wheel. There is absolutely no chance of us getting another given the loss of all of those items on top of the oddities we grew annoyed with in the first place.

*For us, we found the following “features” to become overwhelmingly irritating over time:

• the stupid exterior door handles, requiring explanations for every passenger every time
• the stupid interior door releases, requiring explanations for every passenger every time
• the silly AutoWiper performances
• the shocking and frequently severe phantom braking plaguing the car throughout it’s tenure with us
• the newest versions of FSD that refused to drive at the speed limit
• the ridiculous engineering around the cabin air filters rendering replacement a task for a Cirque du Soleil performer…and the need to replace them at least annually in our case
• the very noisy interior precluding normal conversation at highway speeds
• the seat discomfort after an hour or so of driving
• the software that disabled our radar, and several functions that depended upon it. These functions FINALLY were replaced in software several years later. YEARS later.

Admittedly our experience is with one Model 3 and improvements have been made to overcome some but not all of these issues while introducing others. In fairness, there were things we DID like about the car. However, “No more soup Tesla for you!”

 

• the silly AutoWiper performances

Hyundai seems to have gotten that correct at least! I haven't had a lot of rain experience with my car since it's still summer, but it's been very reliable and not annoying at all so far.

 

this is the OP, didn't realize this post gotten this much replies now... I do want to say that I'm liking the I5 overall, no regrets for sure! And I feel better not supporting Elon. But I also want to add a few things that I missed from the MY. I don't use my fob as I'm used to that driving the MY. And I missed not having to press the start button and usually I don't even have to shift gears. It knows I'm in the garage and I need to back up so it automatically goes into reverse when I tap on the brakes. I missed shifting from R to D in motion and not having to tap the brakes. I hate that my phone does not connect to the I5 after getting in and I have to wait a few sec before I can start the car. Or I have to place my phone on the wireless charger. little nuances like these make a lot of difference!

 

little nuances like these make a lot of difference!

Exactly. Tesla has really optimized away lots of little nuances like this that no other manufacturer has even really started doing yet.

Perhaps the new Apple Carplay Ultra or whatever or the equivalent Google Android version will put the work in to make these little nuances go away, I dunno. I can't imagine many vendors are very excited about giving away their end-user software interface to Apple/Google, but we shall see. Especially now that they are likely just starting to see some recurring revenue from the internet link (Bluelink in Hyundai land). There is little chance they will want that revenue stream to go away, and I'm sure Apple and Google will happily take it instead if they can get away with it.

 

Another thing no one talks about is Hyundai includes ADAS at no charge. Almost all other manufacturers charge for ADAS (Tesla FSD, GM Super Cruise, Ford Blue Cruise, etc)after an initial 2-3 year trial period.

 

Although Tesla charges an arm and a leg for Flaky Student Driver (FSD), the last I checked, basic Autopilot came free with all new Teslas. Hyundai's Highway Driving Assist (HDA) or HDA2 is more similar to Autopilot than to FSD; FSD is a next-level system that can drive the car on city streets, albeit (IMHO) unsafely. AFAIK, Super Cruise and Blue Cruise are also more akin to Autopilot than to FSD.

That said, Tesla changes its feature mix the way most people change their socks. I just checked their Web site and couldn't find a clear answer to the question of whether basic Autopilot is still standard.

 

I had the opposite experience with trusting the car's driving. I drove a 23 MY for a work trip, and within 1.5 hours from my house, two times it did emergency "phantom braking" from 70 MPH on the interstate because of shadows under 2 overpasses. Couldn't trust it again after that.

I've owned a 25 I5 for a couple months and while it can't do everything AP is supposed to, when I get on a marked road, I didn't have to correct anything, speed or lane, most of the time. If the Teslas used radar to prevent the phantom braking, I'd like it, but that was truly scary to sign on brakes doing 70 in moderate traffic.

 

I had the opposite experience with trusting the car's driving. I drove a 23 MY for a work trip, and within 1.5 hours from my house, two times it did emergency "phantom braking" from 70 MPH on the interstate because of shadows under 2 overpasses. Couldn't trust it again after that.

We had the same, possibly worse, experience in our 2018 Model 3. We had almost no drive, regardless of time or distance, in which the damn thing DIDN”T have phantom braking…horrible, and one of the bigger reasons we traded away from it. In that car it didn’t matter that I had radar for the first several years of ownership. After the radar was disabled by a software update, we had worse phantom braking for awhile, then it got marginally better, worse, better, lather, rinse, repeat throughout our ownership with each software update. Never completely solved, along with the AutoWipers but that’s a topic for another entire laughable thread.