[Fan of EV]

What makes Germany so special with this issue?

Everyone has to be special about something, for example London, UK seems to be special about thefts using a Gameboy type device.

Using Google translate on the link given by @Coastal we get which specifically mentions the ICCU:

Which vehicles are more reliable, and which break down more often, electric cars or combustion engines? The ADAC can answer this question more thoroughly than before thanks to an expanded database in the ADAC breakdown statistics. In total, the ADAC recorded more than 3.6 million "Yellow Angel" breakdowns in 2024, a further increase compared to 2023. The number of breakdowns involving electric cars rose by 46 percent due to the growing number of electric cars, although not to the same extent as the number of vehicles in operation (97 percent). With the sharp increase in electric cars on the roads, the data in the ADAC breakdown statistics is improving: It shows that electric vehicles are less prone to breakdowns than combustion engines of the same age. Among vehicles two to four years old, combustion engines suffer two and a half times as many breakdowns as electric cars. The breakdown rate for combustion engines was 9.4 breakdowns per 1,000 vehicles in the breakdown year 2024, compared to just 3.8 for electric cars.

The current 2025 breakdown statistics analyze the breakdown data from a total of 159 model series and provide a detailed evaluation of the most reliable and most vulnerable vehicle models of all drive types. Several Toyota models, which were otherwise considered relatively reliable in the past, proved particularly prone to breakdowns. The model with the highest breakdown rate is the Toyota C-HR, first registered in 2020, with 63.1 breakdowns per 1,000 vehicles. However, other Toyota models also perform poorly in terms of reliability (Toyota RAV4, Yaris, and Yaris Cross). Problems with the starter battery were often the cause. Toyota has already responded by introducing new, more powerful batteries.

In the current evaluation, the two combustion engines MINI (0.3) and Audi A4 (0.4) performed best among the two-year-old vehicles. The best electric car was the Tesla Model 3 (0.5). A total of twelve models had a breakdown index of less than 1. In addition to the Toyota models (Yaris Cross 40.0; Yaris 29.2; C-HR 16.4; RAV4 18.4), an electric car also performed negatively – the high breakdown susceptibility of the Hyundai IONIQ 5 (22.4) is due to problems with the integrated charging control unit (ICCU) and has already resulted in a recall by the Federal Motor Transport Authority.

As in previous years, the defective starter battery was the main cause of breakdowns. 44.9 percent of all breakdowns in 2024 were attributable to them. A distinction is made between drive types, combustion engines show the lowest breakdown rates with regard to the 12V
Battery more vulnerable. While the percentage of breakdowns in electric vehicles is higher at 50.5% than in combustion engines (44.6%), the breakdown rate for two- to four-year-old vehicles is 2.3 breakdowns per 1,000 higher for combustion engines (4.0) than for electric vehicles (1.7). This is due to the overall lower breakdown susceptibility of electric vehicles, coupled with a lower incidence of other component failures.

Further information and details can be found at adac.de.

The link to adac.de is generic but clicking through and looking for the report gets a page that says the page is not available.

 

[Coastal]

I wouldn’t consider a 12V a breakdown, just like I wouldn’t consider running out of gas a breakdown either. A consumable was… consumed, whether appropriately or not

It sounds like ADAC is like AAA in the USA (I assume there is an equivalent in Canada). All they are doing is measuring the number of times they are called out and as they said the 12V was the cause of 44.9% of all of their call outs.

To get a number per 1000 vehicles I assume they have a database of the # of each vehicle type on the road in Germany (but knowing how they do this is actually pretty important to the validity of the data)

 

[GregBrew]

I think you have stated this before, wondering where the info comes from.

If you look at the voltages (with a battery monitor) while the ICCU is charging the 12V, it tops out at about 14.75V. That's the sweet spot for charging an AGM. Flooded PbAs want something lower, and may start outgassing at about 14.6V.

While not documentation from anyone in the design team at Hyundai, IMO, this as pretty good evidence that the charge system of the ICCU was designed for AGMs, and Hyundai tried to save a few pennies by putting flooded PbAs in their EVs. Again, my opinion is that the charging system in these vehicles is reducing the life of the flooded PbAs by allowing them to go too low, then overcharging them.

AGMs seem pretty happy to be treated this way. Time will tell.

 

[rbdavis808]

The link to adac.de is generic but clicking through and looking for the report gets a page that says the page is not available.

The most detailed general description of the study that I can find on the ADAC site is here. If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of that page you'll see additional links of interest, in particular the breakdown stats (from which you can download the annual PDF reports, but unfortunately German-only AFAIK) and FAQ. I think the FAQ may explain why the I5 is not listed in the appropriate Mittelklasse table in the PDF (perhaps not high enough total registration count?).

The most granular I5-specific info I can find on the site is here. Unfortunately this page just classifies all of the failures as Vehicle electronics in general or Starter battery. TBH, I have a hard time imagining any of our local AAA responders here looking at my dead-by-the-side-of-the-road I5 and saying "Yeah, your ICCU failed." Maybe the ADAC staff are better informed, but probably not quite to that degree? It's perhaps more likely that someone else at ADAC is doing a bit of editorial overreach on this point. I think this also depends upon exactly what is meant by breakdown. If an I5 literally breaks down while driving for electrical reasons, the chances are likely quite high that it really is the ICCU. If OTOH the car is just sitting dead in your garage for some electrical problem, then that could be ICCU or, far more likely, just some generic 12v issue (which might still be ICCU-related).

Still, it's not great that I5 is at the top of any breakdown list of this sample size for whatever reason.

 

[mralex1986]

It sounds like ADAC is like AAA in the USA (I assume there is an equivalent in Canada).

CAA here

 

[Hitstirrer]

If an I5 literally breaks down while driving for electrical reasons, the chances are likely quite high that it really is the ICCU.

Whilst I understand where you are coming from I would suggest that it's the 12v battery that ultimately causes the halt in progress. As you say, it is highly likely that an ICCU issue caused the battery to become too low in voltage to satisfy the car's systems and it shut down.

My issue is that this is most likely the culmination of several low voltage events that never got low enough to cause a shutdown but collectively they damaged the 12v battery gradually over some weeks until it was eventually killed.

I have been aware of this kind of creeping issue with other cars over the 8 years that I have driven an EV. I was advised to keep a close eye on the health of the 12v so that such a developing situation would become obvious well before it eventually gave up the ghost. I fitted a BM2 and also bought a modern smart charger. There were times when the BM2 reported a lower voltage than ideal, and an overnight session with the mains smart charger took it back to optimum levels. This meant that the battery never got to the point where it was irreparably damaged and thus never caused me to suffer a roadside breakdown. An example where preventative maintenance worked.

Most EV drivers don't pay any attention to the 12v battery until it fails. They then fit a replacement and experience a second failure a few months later. At which time they join a forum and vent. I'm not saying that it wasn't an ICCU failure at all. But I'm pretty sure that if they had been more aware of the ongoing issue before the ultimate failure then they wouldn't be reporting a breakdown when driving on a freeway.

There have been suggestions that a badly damaged 12v battery could have caused the ICCU to fail because it was working every few minutes to keep a decent charge in there when the battery itself was unable to hold a charge. This is all part of the ongoing mystery about such 12v/ICCU problems.

But I can report that over 9 years and three EVs my regime of preventative and proactive action to maintain the health of the 12v battery has seen no further problems once I took that advice after the first problem.

 

[lrpinion]

Sounds like you have learned to cope well with a weakness the manufacturer should have not allowed the car to reach production with. Most people, me included, don't need, are not used to or expect the extra hassle. JMO

 

[mralex1986]

Sounds like you have learned to cope well with a weakness the manufacturer should have not allowed the car to reach production with. Most people, me included, don't need, are not used to or expect the extra hassle. JMO

We all have no choice but to cope with the successes and failures of any manufacturer of any product we all buy.

There seem to be two outcomes of this logic, one of them unfortunately is commonly American only (love you all, by the way): learn to handle the problems ourselves, or sue for everything. Most of us learn from shortcomings and find our own workarounds. That’s what you will find on forums

 

[mralex1986]

Follow-up point: in the grand scheme of things, the modern EV (keyword: MODERN) is still in its infancy. We all must accept a certain degree of risk that comes with new tech, EVs being no different. If anybody expects an EV to be perfect right now, you’re nuts! ICE cars are over 100 years old and we are still trying to perfect them. Manage your expectations

 

[I5inAZ]

Electric Viking sites study of EV on road breakdowns in Germany with Tesla suffering 1 on road break down VS 45 for Ioniq 5. EVs Destroy ICE Cars in Reliability: But 1 popular EV Breaks-Down constantly

After following the link to the "Electric Viking" video I found what is all too prevalent -- click bait half truths and distortions. My sense is that this guy definitely has some sort of agenda, but he never makes it clear. And if I had to bet on it, I'd say this this is the kind of guy living in his parents' basement, and who hasn't ever had a real job or a date in his life. But hey, it's the internet, and we can say just about anything without ever having to back it up with facts.

 

[lrpinion]

Follow-up point: in the grand scheme of things, the modern EV (keyword: MODERN) is still in its infancy. We all must accept a certain degree of risk that comes with new tech, EVs being no different. If anybody expects an EV to be perfect right now, you’re nuts! ICE cars are over 100 years old and we are still trying to perfect them. Manage your expectations

Or just buy a Tesla. If that is unpalatable, even Ioniq 5's sister machines, EV6 GV60 have substantially better reliability records. Even with those two there a whole bunch of lemon law buy back cars out there, mostly due to HKGs inability to properly service and provide parts in a timely manner. Seems a terrible business model.

After following the link to the "Electric Viking" video I found what is all too prevalent -- click bait half truths and distortions. My sense is that this guy definitely has some sort of agenda, but he never makes it clear. And if I had to bet on it, I'd say this this is the kind of guy living in his parents' basement, and who hasn't ever had a real job or a date in his life. But hey, it's the internet, and we can say just about anything without ever having to back it up with facts.

What specifically are the half truths and distortions? He does not live in his parents basement. He has two young boys and a wife with terminal cancer, so yeah, he is not into dating. He is enough of an industry insider that he is invited to premiers and special events so has some access beyond that afforded Joe 6 Pack. I watch a lot of his videos. Though like many successful internet bloggers he is prone to sensationalism, he does deliver a useful amount of EV industry news and information. He does lean Chinese, but that is where most of the news is. I see no value in attacking the messenger because you may not like the message.

 

[mralex1986]

Ok I can see exactly what kind of stupid p***ing match this is going to turn into now. Points made, video is useless, opinions are going to start to turn into insults.

Mods should close this topic off now.

 

[JerryP]

even Ioniq 5's sister machines, EV6 GV60 have substantially better reliability records

EV6 uses the exact same ICCU as the Ioniq 5 and I assume the Genesis does as well. So do all the eGMP cars.

The Viking guy is about like Scotty Kilmer, imho.

 

[Fan of EV]

If that is unpalatable, even Ioniq 5's sister machines, EV6 GV60 have substantially better reliability records.

I wonder why the EV6 and/or GV60 have better records? They are based on the same platform and built by the same corporation.

FWIW, I know a person with a GV60 who had his 12v battery fail shortly after he purchased the car. Happened on a road trip and he was not too happy about it.

 

[tadda]

click bait crap

next...

 

[79Bry]

I don't think anyone would argue Hyundai doesn't have an issue with their 12V battery. They use a crappy 12V battery, it results in quite a few problems, especially for cars 2-4 years of age, specifically what the statistics used in the video are. Hyundai should fix it and use a better 12V battery. Rumor has it they use an AGM in some of their newer EVs, that's a good start. My dealer has specifically been quite proactive in wanting to know the 12V health, that's another good start. The video even mentions Tesla having the same 12V issue with their older cars, and have since fixed it since shifting to lithium 12V batteries. It's a simple fix, one has to wonder how good Hyundai's reliability numbers would be if they used a better 12V battery, it almost certainly would then be right up their with the rest of the industry at about 3/1000 vehicles. I'm fine with a little social media pressure to help get Hyundai to do the right thing.

Kind of BS that Hyundai is forcing me to remove a crappy 12V battery out of my brand new $70k I5N and replace it with an AGM, but that's presently where we are,

 

[lrpinion]

Ok I can see exactly what kind of stupid p***ing match this is going to turn into now. Points made, video is useless, opinions are going to start to turn into insults.

Mods should close this topic off now.

I do not do personal insults on the forums, so don't fear that from me. No good can come of that. I was just offering some counter to your , in my opinion, erroneous post. No offense intended. No reason for Mods to close a topic that seems to be of interest to many here.

 

[lrpinion]

EV6 uses the exact same ICCU as the Ioniq 5 and I assume the Genesis does as well. So do all the eGMP cars.

The Viking guy is about like Scotty Kilmer, imho.

Your first statement is correct. Wonder why those cars have better reliability? That's what puzzles me.

 

[79Bry]

Your first statement is correct. Wonder why those cars have better reliability? That's what puzzles me.

As far as I can tell the EV6 and Genesis are not even included in with the dataset provided by ADAC.de, not sure we can say they have better or worst reliability numbers.

 

[rbdavis808]

The Viking guy is about like Scotty Kilmer, imho.

I find that E.V. can be helpful insofar as he seems to scour many international news sources daily looking for topics to cover with his videos. If I see a video title on a subject of interest I'll sometimes watch it just long enough to discover the source, then go directly to the latter. Also, being centered on the AU market he has good coverage of Chinese developments which, until the last year or so, were not covered well on other channels I follow. (Lately it seems like OoS Kyle practically lives there.)