[Neptune]

Lehman Hyundai in Miami has $K ADM sticker on the I6 in the showroom. Not sure about I5.

I6 are not selling either. The majority of Americans are just not interested in paying 40-50k for an EV. Still many anti EV folks or many just prefer their familiar ICE cars.

 

[Neptune]

Just got an offer from Vroom for my 23 SEL AWD with 3200 miles. $32,000 LoL. $10 for each mile.

 

[Hsiaotsu]

I6 are not selling either. The majority of Americans are just not interested in paying 40-50k for an EV. Still many anti EV folks or many just prefer their familiar ICE cars.

I keep hearing from my friends how much extra I paid for an EV. My 2023 IQ5 SEL RWD was ~$51k delivered. The average new car price last year was $46k. No doubt the ICE industry is encouraging this perception.

 

[Yaric]

We live in the San Diego area, where we have the highest energy prices in the US. Peak period during the summer (4 pm until 9 pm weekdays) is now over $0.80/kWh 😳! About $0.50 off peak and $0.15 from midnight until 6 am. I completed the electrification of our home a couple of years ago with a variable speed HP and zoned air distribution, HP water heater and HP clothes dryer. We were on propane for those appliances before. Leased a Kona EV, which was just replaced with an Ioniq 5. I also added 2.5 kW to our previous 5kW PV system, and added a 20 kWh storage battery. Our system produces about 75% of what we use but I can “arbitrage” the Time of Use rates to my advantage. We run completely off the PV and battery during the peak period, and sell a lot of that $0.50 and $0.80 electricity back to SDGE when the PV is overproducing. We pay our electric bill once a year (three weeks ago) and it was a total of about $200 for entire year. No more propane and no more gasoline.

Can you mention how much did you pay for whole installation, panels, battery and electrics?

 

[voxel]

I keep hearing from my friends how much extra I paid for an EV. My 2023 IQ5 SEL RWD was ~$51k delivered. The average new car price last year was $46k. No doubt the ICE industry is encouraging this perception.

To be fair, a $50K Palisade would have HUD, 360 camera, and ventilated seats. Those are only available on the top trim ($59K) Limited. You get more features at the same price point with an ICE car.

 

[Neptune]

I keep hearing from my friends how much extra I paid for an EV. My 2023 IQ5 SEL RWD was ~$51k delivered. The average new car price last year was $46k. No doubt the ICE industry is encouraging this perception.

Ioniq6 costs literally twice as much as a Sonata. EVs are still too expensive up front for most working stiffs.

 

[FlbrkMike]

Can you mention how much did you pay for whole installation, panels, battery and electrics?

Very good question, and it's a long story because it involves a lot of moving parts. I'll try to give you the "condensed" version.

2012 - installed 5 kW of PV built on a solar shade structure for our patio. I think the cost was about $50K for the whole thing including engineering the building the shade structure. The entire cost qualified for the 30% Investment Tax Credit and about $2K in California state incentives.

Around 2017 I was fortunate to enroll in a California Energy Commission sponsored "smart home study" where they installed a L2 charger and 8 kWh Sonnen storage battery, which I got to keep at the end of the study in 2019. I just had to agree that they could remotely control the L2 charger and the battery's charge and discharge cycles and have access to my data for two years. I was driving a Ford Fusion energi plug-in hybrid at the time, and I didn't need a panel upgrade because I already had a 200 amp service. We don't have any natural gas service so our home was mostly electric except for water heater, furnace and clothes dryer, which were all propane.

2019 - the study ended and I got to keep the charger and the battery. One reason we wanted the battery was for emergency backup, but found at this point that it was a stripped down version without a transfer switch. I found a local Sonnen dealer who would give me $5,000 credit for the four 2 kWh battery modules toward purchase and installation of the full functional 10 kWh battery. This involved moving most of the house circuits from the main panel to a new "protected loads" panel next to the battery. These would be the circuits that would still operate when the grid goes down (we live in an area in Southern California that's subject to "Public Safety Power Shutdowns" during dangerous fire weather). I think the total cost (after the "trade-in") was about $12,000. This also qualified for the 30% Investment Tax Credit.

It was around this time, after taking an interest in the battery operation and looking at my own data, that I realized that this could present a good opportunity to switch from our fixed rate plan at SDG&E to the TOU tariff. We also had become more intentional about electrifying our home. Between 2017 and 2021 we purchased a heat pump clothes dryer, removed the propane furnace and replaced it with a high efficiency zoned air-to-air heat pump system, and replaced our water heater with a heat pump hybrid unit. I'm not going to go into the total cost for all of these because it required some major modification of ductwork and some other things, but they definitely played into the final payback, because propane costs here about 4X as much as natural gas per kBtu, and the heat pump units are about 4X the efficiency of the propane (or NG) units. Plus we were able to completely get rid of the 300 gallon potential propane bomb sitting next to our garage. In 2019 I also traded the leased plug-in hybrid for a new Hyundai Kona EV. In 2020 we added another 2 kW of PV capacity to cover all of this new electric demand. This was about $8K before the tax credit.

The final step in 2021 was to add another 10 kWh to the battery capacity. This gives us enough capacity to operate indefinitely if and when the grid goes down, we just can't use the electric stove or oven because their 50 amp circuits were left on the main panel. I think we've had only one half-day planned outage since then. The cost for the battery upgrade was about $20K, before the 28% Investment Tax Credit. We are now saving about $4K per year on propane and replacing it with "free" electricity. And I don't buy any gasoline any more.

So, that's the condensed version of the story. A fairly large investment but a pretty good return, and I was able to take advantage of some major savings. Plus the security of having reliable back-up power. And as retired energy engineer I have a cool toy to play with.

 

[FlbrkMike]

Ioniq6 costs literally twice as much as a Sonata. EVs are still too expensive up front for most working stiffs.

You're talking about MSRP but you need to consider a few things. If you lease a Hyundai BEV in the US it still qualifies for the $7,500 tax credit. They are now subtracting that amount from the lease price. Some states also have some monetary incentive. Maintenance is essentially non-existent, and you pay nothing for gas. Hopefully you won't have to pay $0.50/kWh for charging. So the EV is still more expensive but a lot more competitive than just the MSRP would indicate.

 

[fbitz777]

Not improving!

 

[BigNerd]

I6 are not selling either. The majority of Americans are just not interested in paying 40-50k for an EV. Still many anti EV folks or many just prefer their familiar ICE cars.

And Hyundai purchases are not eligible for any IRA Fed credit like others (ahem Tesla) are.

That's why you should lease one.

 

[hpark21]

Not improving! View attachment 50826

Ha! Your offer is at least over $30K.. I JUST got a new email from Carvana that stated $29k price for 2022 I5 Limited with 17k miles on it. ($3k drop from last week)

 

[Neptune]

You're talking about MSRP but you need to consider a few things. If you lease a Hyundai BEV in the US it still qualifies for the $7,500 tax credit. They are now subtracting that amount from the lease price. Some states also have some monetary incentive. Maintenance is essentially non-existent, and you pay nothing for gas. Hopefully you won't have to pay $0.50/kWh for charging. So the EV is still more expensive but a lot more competitive than just the MSRP would indicate.

Lease cash is okay, you save about 6k not 7.5k. I did it with the Ioniq5. If you have a trade in, you don't get a sales tax reduction by leasing. Plus in my state of MA I got double taxed which I'm still dealing with. My lease started in February, I bought it out a week later, I got taxed $990 excise tax for the lease and then taxed $990 again as the new owner. Still fighting HMF for the tax abatement, it's been a PITA.

I expect Ioniq6 to have discounts around 7500-10k (for purchasing, not leasing) later on, just like Ioniq5 has now.

Nonexistent maintenance is a myth. The Ioniq5 requires cooling flush/maintenance at 40k miles which people have reported costs $750! That costs way more than 4 synthetic oil changes for 40k miles! And tires are more expensive and wear out faster in EVs due to the heavier weight and faster acceleration. People are more likely to accelerate quickly and wear out the tires faster in an EV than an ICE. Not to mention insurance costs more.

 

[Coastal]

Some of you may have seen this (or other similar articles)

Electric Vehicle Prices Fall as Automakers Raise Production

From the article

"While sales of electric vehicles are increasing — they climbed about 48 percent in the second quarter from a year earlier — they are not rising fast enough to keep pace with the number of vehicles rolling off assembly lines. And inventories of unsold vehicles are starting to pile up.

More than 90,000 battery-powered cars and trucks are sitting on dealer lots, four times as many as a year ago, according to Cox Automotive, a market research firm. That’s enough to last 103 days at the current rate of sales, compared with about 50 days for the industry as a whole."

 

[voxel]

Some of you may have seen this (or other similar articles)

Electric Vehicle Prices Fall as Automakers Raise Production

From the article

"While sales of electric vehicles are increasing — they climbed about 48 percent in the second quarter from a year earlier — they are not rising fast enough to keep pace with the number of vehicles rolling off assembly lines. And inventories of unsold vehicles are starting to pile up.

More than 90,000 battery-powered cars and trucks are sitting on dealer lots, four times as many as a year ago, according to Cox Automotive, a market research firm. That’s enough to last 103 days at the current rate of sales, compared with about 50 days for the industry as a whole."

New-Vehicle Inventory, Prices Stabilize; EV Supply Grows - Cox Automotive Inc.

New-vehicle inventory and prices stabilized in June, according to Cox Automotive’s analysis of vAuto data.

www.coxautoinc.com

New inventory is climbing fast...

"Luxury brands Jaguar, Lincoln, Infiniti and Buick had the highest inventory, all with more than 100 days’ supply. Non-luxury brands with the highest inventory were Stellantis’ Ram, Chrysler and Dodge, with more than 90 days’ supply. Jeep inventory dropped to 77 days’ supply.

Small and midsize cars had the lowest supply. High-end luxury cars and EVs had the highest supply. Vehicle segments priced at $50,000 or more had the highest inventory.
Aside from low-volume, high-performance cars, vehicles with the lowest days’ supply were compact and midsize cars, with below 32 days’ supply, followed by compact SUVs, minivans, midsize trucks and subcompact cars."

This article explains the EV price declines

Electric Vehicle Sales in Q2 Strike Another Record, but Growth Ahead Will Be Hard Fought - Cox Automotive Inc.

Cox Automotive publishes a quarterly Kelley Blue Book new-vehicle sales report enumerating electric vehicle sales.

www.coxautoinc.com

"EV segment overall, was aided by sizeable price cuts by some automakers (Tesla, really) and incentive levels well above the industry average. In June, the average price paid for an EV was down nearly 20% year over year. EV share of the U.S. market in Q2 was 7.2%, up from 5.7% a year ago and down from the high in Q1 of an upwardly revised 7.3%."

 

[HKtech]

For as long governments are pumping money in rebates for EV vehicles...resale values will continue to fall below average.

 

[hpark21]

Looks like Ford is struggling with sales of their F150 lightning. They raised price on their PRO model (which I WAS interested in) from $40k to $60k and now they just cut the price to $50k. If there are either further cuts or dealers are willing to deal (though dealer margins on these are said to be VERY slim so there may not be much of nego room), I may be interested in swapping my truck for this one though I would like to swing for larger battery which PRO model does not have option for)
Yah, EV pricing seem to be getting soft. Unfortunately, in this case, Tesla, with their fat margin, can pretty much KILL all the other competition with their pricing. Now, it just may be why everyone is trying to bring out 3 row large SUV to market since that is one thing Tesla is not making or announced plan to make. (Yes, there is model X, but it is super expensive - though how much cheaper others will be is a question though)

 

[Tell It Right]

Looks like Ford is struggling with sales of their F150 lightning.

I wonder why Ford and GM didn't first go with EV small trucks instead of EV full-size trucks. From a practical standpoint, most truck owners who buy a small ICE pickup don't do large pickup chores anyway, or they would have bought a mid-size or large ICE pickup. Thus, small pickup owners would be a customer base more liable to try an EV truck even with the limitations EV trucks have. But the people who regularly haul heavy loads for long stretches (read: people with large ICE pickups) are the last people who'd buy an EV truck. I'll use my own pickup experiences as an example.

For most of my 20's and 30's I had a small 4-cyl pickup. That worked for me because my pickup was mainly for commuting to work and college (working full time the entire time I was getting a CS degree) with only a little bit of time in between quarters to do pickup chores. Even when I finished college and had some more free time, my pickup chores were light. Only once or twice did I pull a trailer more than 100 miles. That task was do-able with my 4-cyl, but I pretty much maxed it out and would be unhappy with my small pickup if I had to do that often. For the most part, what a pickup was for me was the ability to throw dirty things in the back without worrying about messing up a car. And usually what towing I did was light enough for my truck to pull with a breeze. People who use pickups like that are a great use case for an EV truck with its limited range when towing a heavy load, because they don't tow a heavy load for long stretches anyway. Thus, you'd think the pickup makers like Ford and GM would have made EV versions of their small trucks like the old Ford Ranger (today's it's the Maverick) or the old Chevy S-10 instead of the F-150 Lightning and the EV Hummer.

But about the time I turned 40 and on up to now in my 50's, I take on more responsibilities for the family and church and, thus, the pickup chores I tackle tend to be larger. So when it came time to replace my truck over a decade ago I replaced it with a mid-size 6-cyl truck. Last year when I thought about replacing either my wife's car or my pickup with an EV, I thought about the F-150 Lightning, particularly with my wife not on the EV train yet. But there are simply too many times per year I pull a trailer more than 100 miles now (read: too many times I'd have to stop and charge the F150L, which takes longer to charge than the I5). Plus, the miles/kWh efficiency in the large EV trucks are simply way lower than the I5 and other EV cars (read: charging at home would add to my power bill more than charging an EV car, and charging on road trips requires more total charging time than an EV car -- even when not doing pickup chores). So I convinced my wife that her ICE crossover, instead of my ICE pickup, should be the one replaced with an EV, and got the I5. We now have the best of both worlds: a slick-looking and fun driving highly efficient EV car for most of our driving (28K miles in the 13 months we've owned it), and also an ICE pickup for times pickup chores require a get-er-done capability. For reference I have to fill it up on average once every 2 months and most of that use is from using it like a pickup (not just as a 2nd car on the days my wife and I split up for the day driving in different directions, though that happens sometimes). So I use the ICE pickup for pickup chores way too often to put up with the limitations of an EV pickup. But that's not the case of my grown sons who still do light pickup chores with their small pickups like I did when I was their age. Too bad the expensive full-size EV trucks weren't made for selling to them with their small-pickup uses.

I'm hoping that by the time I have to replace my old ICE pickup they'll make pickups that are plug-in hybrid that can do 50 or so miles on just electricity. That'd be perfect for someone who likes to do most of his local driving charged free from solar at home, but every now and then needs a workhorse truck.

 

[hpark21]

I wonder why Ford and GM didn't first go with EV small trucks instead of EV full-size trucks. From a practical standpoint, most truck owners who buy a small ICE pickup don't do large pickup chores anyway, or they would have bought a mid-size or large ICE pickup. Thus, small pickup owners would be a customer base more liable to try an EV truck even with the limitations EV trucks have. But the people who regularly haul heavy loads for long stretches (read: people with large ICE pickups) are the last people who'd buy an EV truck. I'll use my own pickup experiences as an example.

Actually, IMHO, MOST full size pickups are bought by commercial companies - Landscapers/Contractors/etc.
They do NOT go very far often in their cars in most of their driving. They will go to local job site, do work and may go next one, do work and come back and leave truck overnight. IMHO EV pick up trucks are perfect for those kind of jobs. They do not even need to run their generators, plug right into the truck, recharge their tools. run their compressors, etc.

Vast majority of people who gets F150 does not use the truck as trucks but more like glorified soccer dad vehicle. Looking at how shiny and clean those beds, I wonder if they hauled anything in those. Of course, there are some who does haul heavy things long distances in regular basis and EV trucks are NOT for them. BUT I can see why these companies are starting with full size trucks as they would probably have better margins than smaller trucks. Maverick top trim starts at less than $30k. tough to compete there. Hyundai has Santa-Cruz which does go up to $40k, but if EV version starts at around $45k, then it may be tough sell especially against F150 lightning coming in only $5k more (after price adjust) - $7500 credit and I don't think Hyundai can do it much cheaper than $45k IMHO.

 

[BigNerd]

@Tell It Right

Agreed and that's why Ford's hybrid Maverick is selling so well.

 

[HKtech]

1500 series trucks that are far away from being capable for real farmers use and costing 70-90+ dollars are bad business that will eventually backfire ar the manufacturers.
In 2016 i bought Ford F350 King Ranch edition diesel engine with all accessories, after all discounts was out of the door 64k dollars... that is the value for the money.
1500 or F150 series trucks are far away from being true workhorses and ability to carry price tag that they are trying to sell it for.
This ( i call it light duty segment trucks) is being transformed into family haulers that has very little with people who are using it for real farm work or heavy haul.