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FWIW, I leased a Kona EV Limited in April of 2019. This was just a few months after they came out, and my lease on a Ford Fusion plug-in was running out. The MSRP was about $42,500 and, with the tax credit, the lease price was about $35,000. One reason I leased it was because I wanted to try a BEV but not a lot of variety at that time, and I would never touch a Tesla, for a variety of reasons. I figured that there would be many more EV models after three years in 2022. That really had not panned out, the Ioniq 5 was available but in low supply and the dealers in the San Diego area were all tacking on $6,000 to $7,500 “market adjustment”. OK I really liked the Kona anyway so I extended the lease through last November and then bought it for the residual value of $17,500. I only had 25K miles on it and KBB put the resale value at about $23,000 so I figured I was getting a pretty good deal.

This week I decided it was time to pull the trigger on a bigger EV, and leased a 2023 Ioniq 5 Limited AWD, using the trade in and the tax credit to reduce the lease price. They were only going to give me $14,000 for the Kona EV and I said wait a minute it was worth $23K a few months ago. The sales manager said yeah but used car values have dropped a lot. I told him I thought it was worth more and that I’d take it home, check KBB, and sell it and then come back. He didn’t want to lose the sale so he said well let’s check KBB right now. It showed a trade in value of $18K to $21K, a drop from my earlier estimate but still a lot more than what they offered. They agreed to give me $19.5K and I was happy with that and took the car home. Maybe I could have done better? I don’t know but I’m loving the 320 HP, quiet ride and a lot more space than the Kona.
 
It's not for everybody. All the variables have to be in your favor to make it worth it. But it works for me in Alabama where we get lots of sun, most of our power consumption is in the summer (keeping the house cool in the day) instead of the winter (keeping the house warm at night, when we would have relied more on battery power). And even with all of that working in my favor it provides "only" 80% of the power we consume in our all-electric, two-story home, including charging the I5. It would take an infeasible amount of money to make it provide 100% of our power (the law of diminishing returns).

So anyone who wants to recreate what I did has to find the spot that takes advantage of economies of scale (the economic law that says doing more is often cheaper per unit) but not past the law of diminishing returns (the point where the cost per unit increases as we keep wanting more and more). And to figure out where that sweet spot is, you have to do a deep dive in your energy consumption habits and see what you can reduce without lowering your lifestyle (I did lots of energy improvements to the home, and my wife and I drive the I5 more than we used to drive her old ICE crossover, and we keep the temp in the house really comfortable cheaply with our variable speed heat pump, etc.)
We live in the San Diego area, where we have the highest energy prices in the US. Peak period during the summer (4 pm until 9 pm weekdays) is now over $0.80/kWh 😳! About $0.50 off peak and $0.15 from midnight until 6 am. I completed the electrification of our home a couple of years ago with a variable speed HP and zoned air distribution, HP water heater and HP clothes dryer. We were on propane for those appliances before. Leased a Kona EV, which was just replaced with an Ioniq 5. I also added 2.5 kW to our previous 5kW PV system, and added a 20 kWh storage battery. Our system produces about 75% of what we use but I can “arbitrage” the Time of Use rates to my advantage. We run completely off the PV and battery during the peak period, and sell a lot of that $0.50 and $0.80 electricity back to SDGE when the PV is overproducing. We pay our electric bill once a year (three weeks ago) and it was a total of about $200 for entire year. No more propane and no more gasoline.
 
FWIW, I leased a Kona EV Limited in April of 2019. This was just a few months after they came out, and my lease on a Ford Fusion plug-in was running out. The MSRP was about $42,500 and, with the tax credit, the lease price was about $35,000. One reason I leased it was because I wanted to try a BEV but not a lot of variety at that time, and I would never touch a Tesla, for a variety of reasons. I figured that there would be many more EV models after three years in 2022. That really had not panned out, the Ioniq 5 was available but in low supply and the dealers in the San Diego area were all tacking on $6,000 to $7,500 “market adjustment”. OK I really liked the Kona anyway so I extended the lease through last November and then bought it for the residual value of $17,500. I only had 25K miles on it and KBB put the resale value at about $23,000 so I figured I was getting a pretty good deal.

This week I decided it was time to pull the trigger on a bigger EV, and leased a 2023 Ioniq 5 Limited AWD, using the trade in and the tax credit to reduce the lease price. They were only going to give me $14,000 for the Kona EV and I said wait a minute it was worth $23K a few months ago. The sales manager said yeah but used car values have dropped a lot. I told him I thought it was worth more and that I’d take it home, check KBB, and sell it and then come back. He didn’t want to lose the sale so he said well let’s check KBB right now. It showed a trade in value of $18K to $21K, a drop from my earlier estimate but still a lot more than what they offered. They agreed to give me $19.5K and I was happy with that and took the car home. Maybe I could have done better? I don’t know but I’m loving the 320 HP, quiet ride and a lot more space than the Kona.
Used EVs will always have some price floor due to the used $25K tax credit. I personally would have pinged a friend with MMR/auction access to see what live Kona EV prices were but I suspect it would in the same KBB price range.

With that said, you acquired a new EV and the second you drove that Ioniq 5 Limited AWD (I have one) off the lot the value basically dropped to $48K (around $11K off MSRP). Thankfully you are leasing so you can hand over the keys in 2-3 years if you wish.
 
Used EVs will always have some price floor due to the used $25K tax credit. I personally would have pinged a friend with MMR/auction access to see what live Kona EV prices were but I suspect it would in the same KBB price range.

With that said, you acquired a new EV and the second you drove that Ioniq 5 Limited AWD (I have one) off the lot the value basically dropped to $48K (around $11K off MSRP). Thankfully you are leasing so you can hand over the keys in 2-3 years if you wish.
Yes I understand that the value immediately drops by a significant amount but, really, that happens with any new car. And if it’s losing $11K off the MSRP, you have to consider that the actual price was $7,500 less. In the past I always used to purchase my cars but realized about 10 years ago that leasing provides some definite advantages.
 
Purchased my 2022 se rwd at msrp (45k) August/22. I've kept it in immaculate condition with 11k miles.

The dealer who has serviced it since 5k miles came to the table with an offer of 31k yesterday.

Once my blood pressure came down, and the rage-haze subsided, they explained that the $7,500 instant credit for new EVs Hyundai is offering at the moment has killed my resale value.

They took pity on me and raised the offer to 34k, but it's still outrageous.

Im sure other American made EV sales, and kind Uncle Elon's campain of price slashing and full EV tax credit availability has had a major impact on all other EV sales, as other people have stated in this thread.

Hopefully this is just temporary blip in EV history.
Why would you be mad at that offer? I'd say 34k is generous considering you can get a new one for not much more. Most buyers got the tax credit last year so they essentially paid 37.5k for a 22 SE. These cars are not selling, 23 models are sitting on dealer lots by the dozens even with 7500 lease cash deal. Some dealers are discounting $2500 on purchases, combined with $4k+ to finance deal so almost the same as $7500 tax credit except you don't have to wait until next year to claim it. This is not a blip, things are just returning to normal after the car bubble of 2021-2022 popped.
 
Yes I understand that the value immediately drops by a significant amount but, really, that happens with any new car. And if it’s losing $11K off the MSRP, you have to consider that the actual price was $7,500 less. In the past I always used to purchase my cars but realized about 10 years ago that leasing provides some definite advantages.
It's fine but you lost $4K today and probably another $7-10K in depreciation over the next year... whereas if you kept your Kona it would maybe depreciate $3-4K per year. Buying a new car is rarely a good decision... it's more emotional and often related to some need/want.
 
We live in the San Diego area, where we have the highest energy prices in the US. Peak period during the summer (4 pm until 9 pm weekdays) is now over $0.80/kWh 😳! About $0.50 off peak and $0.15 from midnight until 6 am.
I'm on SDG&E's TOU-DR1 rate plan and now see what you're talking about! If you're not a heavy user, that peak rate comes down to about $0.72/kWh. Still no bargain!
 
I'm on SDG&E's TOU-DR1 rate plan and now see what you're talking about! If you're not a heavy user, that peak rate comes down to about $0.72/kWh. Still no bargain!
If you switch to the TOU-EV-5 rate you get a “super off-peak” rate of about $0.14 or $0.15 per kWh between midnight and 6am. Very worthwhile if you’re home-charging an EV or a storage battery, both of which I have.
 
If you switch to the TOU-EV-5 rate you get a “super off-peak” rate of about $0.14 or $0.15 per kWh between midnight and 6am. Very worthwhile if you’re home-charging an EV or a storage battery, both of which I have.
True, although SDG&E slaps on an extra $16/month fixed fee if you choose that rate. I'd have to do some calculations to see which rate is best for me.
 
True, although SDG&E slaps on an extra $16/month fixed fee if you choose that rate. I'd have to do some calculations to see which rate is best for me.
Yes, it all depends on when you charge your RV and whether you’re staying in the Tier 1 usage level. But worst case you would be saving about $0.08/kWh (comparing lowest super off peak rates). To make up the $16.00 you would need to use 204 kWh in a month. That’s less than three full charges for a 77 kWh battery. For me, it’s well worth it because with my PV plus storage battery I’m shifting almost all of my on peak and most of my off peak to the super off peak period. I produce about 75% of my total usage but my annual true up in May was just $240.00. That includes the $16.00/ month meter charge and all of the non-bypassable charges.

If and when they start implementing this income based fixed monthly charge, though, I could be screwed.
 
We live in the San Diego area, where we have the highest energy prices in the US. Peak period during the summer (4 pm until 9 pm weekdays) is now over $0.80/kWh 😳! About $0.50 off peak and $0.15 from midnight until 6 am. I completed the electrification of our home a couple of years ago with a variable speed HP and zoned air distribution, HP water heater and HP clothes dryer. We were on propane for those appliances before. Leased a Kona EV, which was just replaced with an Ioniq 5. I also added 2.5 kW to our previous 5kW PV system, and added a 20 kWh storage battery. Our system produces about 75% of what we use but I can “arbitrage” the Time of Use rates to my advantage. We run completely off the PV and battery during the peak period, and sell a lot of that $0.50 and $0.80 electricity back to SDGE when the PV is overproducing. We pay our electric bill once a year (three weeks ago) and it was a total of about $200 for entire year. No more propane and no more gasoline.
Way ta go! I don't have a heat pump clothes dryer. But I do have a hybrid water heater (heat pump water heater) and a variable speed heat pump for the home with a variable speed air handler.

One trick I did with the water heater was duct air in from our attic. Thus when the water heater runs it doesn't have to run as long to pull heat from its incoming air because the air is usually really warm (blazing hot at times). Another thing I did with it is utilize the cold air blowing out of the water heater during the 7-8 months of the year that the outside temp is warm enough to have to cool the home. I installed an air receiver in the floor near the water heater so that the cold air coming from the water heater is picked up by the HVAC and spread throughout the home (thus the variable speed HVAC doesn't have to work as hard cooling the home air during the 2-3 hours the water heater runs). In the winter months I flip a lever by the water heater and the cold air is ducted into the attic (so my home heating doesn't fight the cold air coming from the water heater).

When I bought the I5 a year ago I upgraded our solar. We now have 20kW solar panels, 18kW continuous inverter capacity, and 92kWh of battery storage. We don't sell power to the grid because there's a default monthly fee added that would make me pay about $130/month more just for the privilege of them buying back power from me for about 1/5th the amount I pay them (in other words, no net metering). By default, we don't have time of day rate plans. Thus, I'm officially paying 12.4384 cents/kWh any time of day. But after they add the riders and state tax (most notably the energy rider when our power utility has to pay more for natural gas to run the natural gas fueled plants after the government reduced our natural gas supply, which was after the government forced our utility to switch from coal to "clean burning" natural gas, but I digress), in my last bill the true cost per kWh was 15.7871 cents (and that was after first subtracting $15.60 in flat fees and taxes charged no matter how much power you pull from the grid). So my power bill averages $75/month (more in the winter months, less in the other months). No natural gas bill. And almost no cost at the pump (I fill up my ICE pickup maybe 3 times per year). That's for an all-electric, two story home with 2,300 sq ft of living space and driving the I5 for 26K miles per year (let's call it charging at home for about 23K of those miles), with my wife retired and me quasi-retired working from home a lot (keeping the house at 68F during the day in hot Alabama summers). Basically, the solar provides 80% of the power we need through the year (less in the winter, more in the other months). So for my May 24 power bill, it was $54.91 for pulling 249kWh from the grid. After subtracting the $15.60 in flat fees, that means $39.31 of the bill was for usage. Pulling 249kWh from the grid means in the end I paid 15.7871 cents per kWh. Since my inverters reporting me using 1,916.5 kWh during that billing period, it means the solar system saved me from having to buy 1,667.5 kWh from the grid (87% of my power was free from solar). Which saved me $263.25 that month. There's nothing in the math about making money selling the grid, it's just pure savings on not having to pull as much from the grid. Combine that with saving $111.18 by no longer having a natural gas bill (after subtracting some power usage added by heating my home and water with power now), and $435 in gasoline savings (after adding some power usage to charge the I5), it totals $757 in energy savings for May.

I am, however, in the process of applying to sell power to the grid. There's another fee I can choose instead of the heinous $5.41 X kW name plate capacity per month fee. The other fee is based on the demand (highest amount of kW pulled from the grid) during the billing period. Thanks to the data export of my inverters recorded in 5-minute candles showing power coming in and out in all data points (from solar panels, to and from batteries, from grid, and total power load no matter where the power is coming from at that point in time), a homemade C# app to dump all that data into a homemade SQL Server database, another homemade C# app to cycle through the past 12 billing cycles of data and calculate what each bill would have been with the different rate plans and fees my utility offers, and a handful of SQL queries, I've determined that the power buyback plan with the demand fee option would have saved me another $350 or so per year, with no power bills from April to November and the remaining 4 months total $550. So when I start selling power to the grid, we'll call it averaging less than $50/month to live in a comfortable cool 2-story 2,300 sq ft home, joy ride in the I5 22K miles local driving per year, and keep sharing a hot tub with the missus as much as we want.

Even if I don't do the power buy back option, and assuming only a reasonable 3% inflation rate on the energy prices I avoid, I'm looking at the overall project paying for itself 9 years from now (10 years of owning the I5, 11 years after I installed the first phase of solar and converted my nat gas appliances to electric to begin this large energy project). That includes paying interest on the HELOC I took out to pay for this overall energy project, and interest on the I5 payments. The energy and car portion of my budget feels like it's still year 2019 (what I was paying for my power bill then + natural gas bill + gas at the pump + $400/month into a car savings account to repair or replace old used ICE cars with another old used ICE car) is how much I use now for my HELOC payment + I5 payment + tiny power bill. Because my payments exceed my year 2019 expenses, I pull the excess from the HELOC so that my budget doesn't feel like it's paying that extra. Every year when I get back the IRS tax credits, I pay extra down on the HELOC which makes my HELOC payments go down and give it more available credit for me to pull from to help me make the I5 payments. 3 years from now when the I5 is paid off I'll keep using the $400/month car savings for 3 more years to help pay down the HELOC, and after that put the $400/month into a car savings account to eventually replace the I5's battery (and whatever other repairs will be needed). While I'll keep paying down the HELOC + tiny power bill with the budget amount I was used to paying in year 2019 (basically it's like I've completely done away with energy inflation in my budget) so that mine and my wife's retirement investments can keep growing tax free in our Roth accounts while everybody else will keep complaining about having to go back to work to pay for sky high energy costs. When the HELOC is paid off, I've already told my wife at that point I'll keep making "energy payments" like it's still year 2019 by putting that amount into an investment account similar to our mutual funds in our retirement accounts (though they won't grow tax free because I will no longer be working). I'll one day use that money to repair or replace the solar equipment or high efficient home appliances or eventually replace the I5 with another EV. Even if my wife and I live another 30 years (we're in our 50's), the energy portion of my budget is liable to feel like it's year 2019 forever with no sky high inflation energy raiding our retirement investments.
 
One trick I did with the water heater was duct air in from our attic. Thus when the water heater runs it doesn't have to run as long to pull heat from its incoming air because the air is usually really warm (blazing hot at times). Another thing I did with it is utilize the cold air blowing out of the water heater during the 7-8 months of the year that the outside temp is warm enough to have to cool the home. I installed an air receiver in the floor near the water heater so that the cold air coming from the water heater is picked up by the HVAC and spread throughout the home (thus the variable speed HVAC doesn't have to work as hard cooling the home air during the 2-3 hours the water heater runs). In the winter months I flip a lever by the water heater and the cold air is ducted into the attic (so my home heating doesn't fight the cold air coming from the water heater).
I've been contemplating experimenting like this with my ASHP water heater. But have wondered about whether sourcing and exhausting external to the home envelope would actually be any better than having it all internal.

Let's say in the winter you exhaust the cold air outside. So now you're pumping air that is above freezing temp out of your house and creating a low pressure system inside. That air then needs to be replaced, which will ultimately come from external below freezing air.
 
I've been contemplating experimenting like this with my ASHP water heater. But have wondered about whether sourcing and exhausting external to the home envelope would actually be any better than having it all internal.

Let's say in the winter you exhaust the cold air outside. So now you're pumping air that is above freezing temp out of your house and creating a low pressure system inside. That air then needs to be replaced, which will ultimately come from external below freezing air.
Exactly. If your home heating and cooling requires maintaining a very tight air envelope, then it's important IMHO to keep all of the air flow either internal or external. So like I do with my water heater in the winter months would be fine (I draw air from the attic and export air to the attic -- no change in air pressure within the house to cause air flow through cracks from outside). But like I do in the summer months would be bad for you in the winter (drawing in air from the attic and exporting it to the living quarters, even if at first it's exported into HVAC intake duct) because that would cause air to flow back out through the cracks, effectively replacing inside air with outside air (as you correctly warn about). However, I could see you using my technique in the summer, especially if you don't have A/C (my extended family members in Canada didn't until recently).

For what it's worth, at first with my water heater I didn't do any duct work. Because I live in hot Alabama, not cold Canada, my test #1 was to try letting the water heater cool the surrounding air around the water heater, which is in my laundry room next to my living room and master bedroom. And it worked well -- it cooled part of the living quarters basically for free. Except for one glaring problem -- it made a very cold spot in one part of the house that wasn't equally spread among the rest of the house. (Which I feared might be a problem, but decided to try it anyway before adding ducts.)

Another issue would be a fireplace, which I don't have. If you change the air pressure in your house (having your water heater duct in air but not ducting out, or vice-versa) it can change how the smoke from your fireplace is supposed to escape through the chimney.

Back to you in Canada. I don't know if a heat pump water heater ducted in and out from the attic would be as valuable for you as it does for me. Basically, here when it gets below freezing temperatures outside, my attic might be 50F. That doesn't happen often, but when it does my water heater doesn't run nearly as efficiently as it does when my attic is warm (which is most of the year for me). I imagine your attic is colder than mine and for longer periods than mine. For most of the year, my attic is a robust supply of free heat. Usually even in the winter when t's cold enough outside to need to heat the home, it's still usually not below freezing and my attic temp is probably 70F. So usually even in the winter my water heater is pretty efficient when ducting from the attic. Then when it gets warm outside (which happens a lot here in the winter) my water heater is very efficient.

Plus, because the outside temps here are hot for much of the year I'm liable to take two showers daily anyway (once in the morning before going out in public, then once again when I get home for the day to keep from being sweaty and smelly by the time I go to bed). Since I do that fairly frequently for months out of the year, I'm running my water heater more frequently and, therefore, it's exporting more free cold air that I'd be a fool not to take advantage of. Bonus points by the fact that my water heater is making cold air more often during times I could use more free cold air (because I'm really wanting to keep my house cool in 90F+ temperatures, which is also when I'll shower more frequently and have my water heater make more free cold air).
 
. These cars are not selling, 23 models are sitting on dealer lots by the dozens even with 7500 lease cash deal.
Are you serious? Up here in Canada we still have 2 years waiting lists for ioniq 5, why don’t they send them here they will sell at full price if not more?
 
Are you serious? Up here in Canada we still have 2 years waiting lists for ioniq 5, why don’t they send them here they will sell at full price if not more?
$$$$

The Canadian Peso (dollar... just kidding, I'm Canadian who loves ketchup chips) is worth a lot less given exchange rates. The US top trim (Ioniq 5 Limited) costs $59K. The top Canadian trim is $59K CDN for the Ultimate. There's 30% more to be made by sending the car to the US.

But the poster is correct... lots are filling up in the US. Most in FL have 2-3 dozen Ioniq 5s on the lot or allocated/incoming.
 
Lehman Hyundai in Miami has $K ADM sticker on the I6 in the showroom. Not sure about I5.
Yeah a few FL Hyundai dealers added ADM on the 6s at first... because it's new but they mostly removed them on the Ioniq 5.

Holler has 55 Ioniq 5s (on lot and incoming)
Hyunda of Central Florida has 24.
Hyunda of New Port Richey has 57 (on lot and incoming)

When I was in Texas visiting my brother in May - we test drove an Ioniq 5 SEL AWD and that Austin dealer had 2 dozen on the lot.
 
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