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There's some useful info on Reddit that may apply to buyers of vehicles who made or will make their purchase in 2022 and who might be otherwise ineligible for the credit under the proposed future rules for various reasons (e.g., personal income, foreign car, etc.). I would not take the contents of that Reddit posting (or any other speculative forum posting, for that matter) as gospel, however. You can read the bill for yourself here, and if you have not yet actually purchased a vehicle but hope to do so later this year I would strongly recommend that you at least take a peek at that and then make your plans accordingly. The bill is of course enormous, with tons of references to other material, and consequently hopeless for most of us to meaningfully read end-to-end. However, I think reasonable sense can be made of some of the more salient parts, so take a look for yourself:

(1) Page 370 line 18 discusses battery stuff. Points here which struck me as interesting included: (i) US free-trade partners like Korea are eligible in terms of component mineral extraction and processing, but (ii) do not appear eligible in terms of battery manufacture and assembly.

(2) Page 385 line 23 and page 386 line 3 seem to say that if the date of the vehicle's final assembly is after the law's date of enactment (even if that is prior to 12/31/22) then that vehicle is ineligible for the credit if it's foreign-made.

(3) Page 386 line 20 seems to say that you can use the existing credit rules for vehicles delivered after 12/31/22 only if you have a signed purchase agreement dated prior to the law's date of enactment, which again could be well before 12/31/22.

I have yet to hear anything at all about any language in the bill saying that buyers purchasing vehicles in 2023 or later are entitled to the credit under grandfathering of the current rules if they are otherwise ineligible under the proposed future rules. If that language is present somewhere I'm sure it would be welcome news to many people here.

Thanks to the author of that Reddit posting and its various commenters for providing pointers to the interesting parts of the bill!
 

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Just discovered another useful interpretation of this situation in this video which I highly recommend. The poster actually went to the enormous trouble of combining text from the proposed bill with the language of the last bill to provide much better context, and the youtube page has a link where you can actually read that combined document at your leisure. Fucx1ng awesome!! It's highly Tesla-oriented but quite informative nonetheless.

One interesting point he raises is that the proposed bill will fully subsidize any vehicle with a battery larger than 7kWhr (assuming it complies with the bill's other battery constraints) , meaning pretty much any PHEV I guess. This really seems like a bone thrown to automakers who don't want to stop using ICE. I guess as long as the credits are unlimited in terms of vehicle count it's not hurting EV buyers, but it's certainly not helping to move PHEV drivers to a full EV.
 

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I mean, like the bill itself, it's a huge concession to oil - and that's what was needed to get it passed.

Requiring any future renewable projects to be contingent on oil rights from the PREVIOUS year is pretty crazy. But again, it's been so long since we've seen a compromise on anything important that I'm not shocked.

EV wise it'll have a chilling effect on sales initially. Everyone's basically selling every EV they can make in the current system. Remove the tax credit for anything not currently being build like Tesla, the Bolt, or the forthcoming lower battery ID.4, is going to cut the majority of models coming to market out of the equation. That's deliberate and designed as a concession to oil - the goal isn't to expand EV adoption period, it's to save the credit. It's designed to delay the adoption of EVs knowing that only six or so models currently will qualify (and, presumably, GM's Ultium line-up? I haven't dug into where all their parts come from).

I'd be very surprised if other carmakers took a hit due to the lack of the tax rebate the way GM did, they've been pretty clear the Ultium EVquinox will replace the bolt and it's not going to get another generation going forward so they're just trying to clear their existing stock and capacity out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #144 ·
Just discovered another useful interpretation of this situation in this video which I highly recommend. The poster actually went to the enormous trouble of combining text from the proposed bill with the language of the last bill to provide much better context, and the youtube page has a link where you can actually read that combined document at your leisure. Fucx1ng awesome!!
Great find, thank you. Both the video and the document with changes tracked. Super.
 

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I had a lady look at my Ioniq 5 last week outside a coffee shop in a very inbred area of PA and say loud enough for me to hear that it has a larger carbon footprint than most gas vehicles so I just let her talk. As I got in my car, I watched her get into her oversized Ford truck as it spewed black smoke. If she had a penis it would have been at full staff while she spewed her Tucker Carlson false facts in front of me. I am currently looking to add solar panels to my house before the end of the year assuming that credit may also be gone soon.
Are you sure she didn't have a penis? In this day and age......................:eek:
 

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She may be the only thing that saves this country from more inflationary spending. The Inflation Reduction Act of 2022. My a*s! Talk about newspeak!
I'm not an economist, but the opinion pieces I've read from well known economists agree with the title on how the bill will work. But there are a lot of moving parts in this bill so it is not unreasonable to disagree with the title. Anything to make Manchin happy. But anyone who calls it newspeak is clearly being political, not presenting a reasoned argument.

But even if it was inflationary, I cannot think of a better reason than to make a good attempt to save the planet. Doing nothing won't cut it. That is becoming less political every year as people experience in person what happens to a warming planet. And isn't that why we are all participating in a forum about increasing efficiency of our personal transport?
 

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I'm not an economist, but the opinion pieces I've read from well known economists agree with the title on how the bill will work. But there are a lot of moving parts in this bill so it is not unreasonable to disagree with the title. Anything to make Manchin happy. But anyone who calls it newspeak is clearly being political, not presenting a reasoned argument.

But even if it was inflationary, I cannot think of a better reason than to make a good attempt to save the planet. Doing nothing won't cut it. That is becoming less political every year as people experience in person what happens to a warming planet. And isn't that why we are all participating in a forum about increasing efficiency of our personal transport?
Yeah. this is the rub. Initially I was floored at the expanded drilling and chilling effect the US sourced and produced requirements will have on EV sales. But then I realized yeah, Manchin, so it's really this or nothing. We're not the rest of the western world with federal grids and excess energy paying people to use it when it overproduces (Uk, so rad), we're still way way way way way way way behind in infrastructure, education, healthcare, etc. So really ANYTHING that moves us forward, how ever painfully and even if it slows that movement, is better than nothing. With renewables costing way less to build then fossil fuel plants cost to run, I'm hoping the drilling crap is moot by the end of the decade. And really that's all it is, a shell game amongst the ultra wealthy (Manchin) to see how much longer he continue to be even richer and buy like another yacht or whatever at the expense of retarded progress towards the goals the world has agreed on.

It's really weird living in the only western country that doubts all the science and data and such, oh well, as we've seen with the flooding and heat this week, planet doesn't care :). But it's wise for folks who follow data and science to continue to steel ourselves against this new norm of unprecedented impact every single year.
 

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I'm not an economist, but the opinion pieces I've read from well known economists agree with the title on how the bill will work. But there are a lot of moving parts in this bill so it is not unreasonable to disagree with the title. Anything to make Manchin happy. But anyone who calls it newspeak is clearly being political, not presenting a reasoned argument.

But even if it was inflationary, I cannot think of a better reason than to make a good attempt to save the planet. Doing nothing won't cut it. That is becoming less political every year as people experience in person what happens to a warming planet. And isn't that why we are all participating in a forum about increasing efficiency of our personal transport?
Exactly. I could care less what the bill is called, and anyone with extreme monetary views could claim that any bill spending any money on anything is inflationary. The more appropriate concern for any bill ought to be 'Does this bill spend money intelligently in the pursuit of a worthwhile goal?' Commentary in these EV forums is rightly focused on EV points of concern and there's certainly plenty to quibble about there, but the bill may have far greater impact with the extension of the renewable energy credit and its restoration to 30%. Furthermore, beyond the narrow domain of US domestic issues it would be the only significant demonstration by the US to the rest of the world in quite some time that we are willing to make an effort to slow climate change.
 

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... as people experience in person what happens to a warming planet.
Actually, historically a warming planet is good for people's experiences. We all should be glad we live in the Modern Warm Period (keep in mind this is typed by someone with a 2022 I5 Limited AWD and over 20kW of solar panels). For as far back as we have written history, the trend for warming periods is an experience in overall higher crop yields, more predictable rain patterns, and less deaths by plague. While the trend for cooling periods is the opposite: lower crop yields, less predictable rain patterns, and more deaths by plague. In other words, we should be happy we live in the Modern Warm Period.

200 years ago when we were coming out of the Little Ice Age (which went from AD 1300-1800's), no American would have dreamed that our government would be paying farmers to keep land fallow because back then, survival meant everybody growing as much as they could. Now the U.S. grows so much food that our government pays some farmers to avoid growing food (ostensibly to keep us from having a food oversupply, which would lower food prices and make it hard for farmers to stay in business). If you think wars for oil are bad today, think about how much worse wars for crop land were during the cooling periods.

Here's an article from Vox (not exactly a bastion of right-wing opinions) perhaps best understood with their graph (below) reminding us that our Modern Warm Period is just one of many centuries long mini-glacial periods, within the much larger Holocene glacial period. You'll see that our Modern Warm Period (AD 1800's - present) is a nothingburger when you think about the Medieval Warm Period (AD 900-1300), Roman Warm Period (time of Christ), and Minoan Warm Period (time of Moses 1600-1100 BC). Ever since the Holocene Epoch around 5500 BC (7,500 years ago) our warm periods are less warmer than the prior ones, while our cooling periods are even worse than the prior ones. Given that the prior warm periods lasted 4 to 6 centuries each, and our Modern Warm Period is only 2 centuries old, I predict it has 2 to 4 more centuries left before it peters out and we enter yet another cooling period.

Product Slope Organism Rectangle Font
 

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I don't judge Dims by what Republicans say about them. Nor do I judge Republicans by what Dims say about them, including Dims at cnet and Wired (about as left-leaning as you can be and still be tech sites). Oh, no's! One senator out of a 100-seat senate! LOL

And the "EV tax credit plan" the GOP governors were opposing is the BBB's only-union-made-EV's-get-the-extra-$5K credit "plan". Everybody knows that part of the union dues go to Dim campaigns. The BBB's EV segment does nothing but jack up the cost of EV's (as all subsides do in any industry) and make part of that go into Dim campaign coffers. Are you really surprised the GOP is against that? That's not an anti-EV issue, that's an anti-Dim-slush-fund issue. The GOP give plenty of reasons to fuss at them, you're just not looking at the right places.
I thought Dims was a spelling error but I realized you were unironically doing a dimwitted child speak. How old are you?
 

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I thought Dims was a spelling error but I realized you were unironically doing a dimwitted child speak. How old are you?
I missed your critique about an earlier poster in this thread referring to people who disagreed with him as "a very inbred area of PA". Evidently the name calling is bad in only one direction.

I also noticed you haven't responded to my earlier post today about all the warming periods that have occurred since the Holocene Epoch show that our Modern Warm Period is nothing for us to get all worked up about (my response to yticolev's post that we should spend our way into more and more harmful inflation in order to save us from the experiences of a warming planet).
 

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I missed your critique about an earlier poster in this thread referring to people who disagreed with him as "a very inbred area of PA". Evidently the name calling is bad in only one direction.

I also noticed you haven't responded to my earlier post today about all the warming periods that have occurred since the Holocene Epoch show that our Modern Warm Period is nothing for us to get all worked up about (my response to yticolev's post that we should spend our way into more and more harmful inflation in order to save us from the experiences of a warming planet).
I've stayed out of this whole thread but being from Lancaster county Pa. in the middle of the "inbred area" I really took offence to the comments too. We still cling to our guns and bibles here.

On the global warning (now called climate change) it is fully a joke. Most all of the temperatures are skewed by urban heat islands in developed areas. Those areas grew rapidly in modern times along with the rising reported temps. Also many areas of the world are interpolated and are inaccurate. Anyone who has ridden a motorcycle in the countryside and returned to the city has felt the dramatic rise in temps upon return.

We experience weather not climate change. Climate change occurs over long periods of time as the chart above shows. In the 70's we were worried about a coming ice age. How did that prediction hold out? Along with all the other wrong weather predictions that were missed by everyone.

Climate change is politically motivated. The science is constantly changing as we develop new energy sources. Hopefully someday we will move away from fossil fuels but that time is a long way off. Not 10 years but way longer than anyone knows (certainly not politicians). Forcing it upon developed nations to fund the rest of the world is not the answer. It will only lead to a lower and more costly standard of living for most of us.

I chose an electric car not to save the planet but to have a fun, fast car to drive. It's very impractical and not easy at all to figure out how to use all the bells and whistles. Much like using a computer program. Very few use all the features of programs our wonderful nerds have created.
 

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I've stayed out of this whole thread but being from Lancaster county Pa. in the middle of the "inbred area" I really took offence to the comments too. We still cling to our guns and bibles here.
...

Climate change is politically motivated. The science is constantly changing as we develop new energy sources. Hopefully someday we will move away from fossil fuels but that time is a long way off. Not 10 years but way longer than anyone knows (certainly not politicians). Forcing it upon developed nations to fund the rest of the world is not the answer. It will only lead to a lower and more costly standard of living for most of us.

I chose an electric car not to save the planet but to have a fun, fast car to drive. It's very impractical and not easy at all to figure out how to use all the bells and whistles. Much like using a computer program. Very few use all the features of programs our wonderful nerds have created.
Hi @Chiptuck, thanks for posting on this issue! Personally, I was born and raised in York so I think I can boast of being even more in-bred than you. :) You and @Tell It Right are absolutely correct on the inappropriateness of name-calling in this forum or anywhere else, and I expect many participants here would love to see that come to a well-deserved end.

On climate change, however, I'm sorry that we'll just have to disagree. Like gravity, earth going round the sun, etc., anthropogenic climate change is settled science. Am I a climate scientist and do I understand the intricacies of climate modeling, etc? No, and that's exactly why I will not say that the 9x% of accredited climate scientists in the world who accept this as a settled issue are wrong.
 

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I missed your critique about an earlier poster in this thread referring to people who disagreed with him as "a very inbred area of PA". Evidently the name calling is bad in only one direction.

I also noticed you haven't responded to my earlier post today about all the warming periods that have occurred since the Holocene Epoch show that our Modern Warm Period is nothing for us to get all worked up about (my response to yticolev's post that we should spend our way into more and more harmful inflation in order to save us from the experiences of a warming planet).
What the F are you even blabbering about? Why the F would I read through your posts to comment and why are you anticipating my response? Who the **** are you even? Get a life.
 

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So, with new EV credit, what ARE the cars that are qualified? I am GUESSING Model Y that has US sourced batteries will be qualified, but Model 3s are iffy due to the sedan MSRP limit.

None of Toyota's EVs would be qualified since they are built in Japan, right? (BZ4X) Subaru is screwed here since Solterra is built in Japan AND they haven't had chance to claim anywhere CLOSE to 200k.
Chevy BOLT will not qualify since they are made in Korea.
Both Ford's EVs will qualify, right? (Mach E and F150 lightening - or is Mach E built in Mexico?)
Nissan's Arya will not qualify as well (Japan built).
EV6 & Ioniq 5 won't qualify (Korea built).
ID4 SHOULD qualify - I think 2023 models should begin to come out of US factory, I just don't know whether the Battery is enough US sourced.
Volvo Recharge wouldn't qualify same as Polestar.
BMW, Audi won't qualify unless Audi starts building EV in same factory as ID4.
I am GUESSING Porsche won't qualify as well.
Rivian should qualify with their base model (but are they even making the base model? R1T? R1S is cutting even more closer at $73k base)
Lucid won't qualify due to price.

I am not so sure whether they are TRYING to promote or dissuade people from buying an EV...
All of sudden, only handful of cars currently selling in the market are going to be qualified for EV credit.
Yes, 200k limit will be lifted but 90% of cars won't qualify ANYWAYS.. Before, only 2 companies completely exhausted the 200k limit.
 

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So, with new EV credit, what ARE the cars that are qualified? I am GUESSING Model Y that has US sourced batteries will be qualified, but Model 3s are iffy due to the sedan MSRP limit.

None of Toyota's EVs would be qualified since they are built in Japan, right? (BZ4X) Subaru is screwed here since Solterra is built in Japan AND they haven't had chance to claim anywhere CLOSE to 200k.
Chevy BOLT will not qualify since they are made in Korea.
Both Ford's EVs will qualify, right? (Mach E and F150 lightening - or is Mach E built in Mexico?)
Nissan's Arya will not qualify as well (Japan built).
EV6 & Ioniq 5 won't qualify (Korea built).
ID4 SHOULD qualify - I think 2023 models should begin to come out of US factory, I just don't know whether the Battery is enough US sourced.
Volvo Recharge wouldn't qualify same as Polestar.
BMW, Audi won't qualify unless Audi starts building EV in same factory as ID4.
I am GUESSING Porsche won't qualify as well.
Rivian should qualify with their base model (but are they even making the base model? R1T? R1S is cutting even more closer at $73k base)
Lucid won't qualify due to price.

I am not so sure whether they are TRYING to promote or dissuade people from buying an EV...
All of sudden, only handful of cars currently selling in the market are going to be qualified for EV credit.
Yes, 200k limit will be lifted but 90% of cars won't qualify ANYWAYS.. Before, only 2 companies completely exhausted the 200k limit.

They're trying to re-shore the production. GM Ultium, VW ID.4 cheap model, and like 2 teslas will qualify until stuff is re-homed so chilling effect on a good part of the EV market for a few years.
 
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