[Skyhawk828]

Stil a lot of improvement & adaptation to be getting on with! Economics will sort the Lithium problem, one way or another.

+1
And economics will eventually bring EVs into the mainstream. Money drives everything. But it does take time to transition from the old ICE tech to the new technologies. I remember reading about the "new" integrated circuit technology... it was so many years ago. There were significant problems to overcome but eventually microchips changed the world. Years later, I remember at work being given our very first personal computer to see if it could be useful (it was). It was a Radio Shack TRS-80 (sounded like an airplane taking off when I used it) and people derided it as a toy. We had a mainframe and it was blasphemy to think a PC could do anything useful. The mainframe was pretty much the ICE of its time at our business. By the time I retired, many years later, the "toys" had evolved to the point they were used by every single employee - including mobile units in our fleet of cars. Economics really drove that tech too. Were there early problems? Oh my, it was overwhelming. I was in charge of I.T. and there were times I thought we were beat and we would fail. But we didn't. The EV industry will not fail either. Problems will be solved. But yes, we are at that early stage where there ARE a lot of problems to solve. But I was thinking this morning about how much fun it was with the "new" personal computer tech almost 50 years ago, this EV thing is going to be a fun adventure too. I can't wait to get our IO5 this week. I fully expect problems transitioning from the ICE world. But I'm also excited about the adventure and journey into the new world.

 

[CoSolar]

The limiting factor in most commonly used EV batteries is cobalt availability not lithium. The advancement of technology, supply and demand are never in perfect harmony. If one material is in high demand and short supply, alternatives will become more desirable.
Meanwhile the fossil fuel industry is doing all it can to protect its business with well funded misinformation campaigns targeting anything (EVs, solar/wind energy, heat pumps etc.) they see as a threat to profitability.

 

[Chiptuck]

Stay off the right-wing sites man. You're going to fry your brain.

I don't frequent right wing sites, however I do think for myself. I originally referenced a report from UC Davis hardly a right wing school.

 

[Flash328]

I don't frequent right wing sites, however I do think for myself. I originally referenced a report from UC Davis hardly a right wing school.

Maybe someone made the assumption because you cherry picked a couple of paragraphs out of a large article and then took a ride on the slippery slope and came up with a wild assertion of the industry based on those paragraphs?

 

[Socalsp3]

When you refuse to entertain opposing views your brain is already fried.

QAnon is that way --->

 

[Tell It Right]

Maybe someone made the assumption because you cherry picked a couple of paragraphs out of a large article and then took a ride on the slippery slope and came up with a wild assertion of the industry based on those paragraphs?

The assumption came from Chiptuck using numbers. That used to be considered smart. Now too many people are saying that math is racist. LOL

 

[cmwade77]

We shouldn't be compared to Europe. We have much larger geographic area and a multitude of terrain to cover. I also remember Switzerland telling everyone not to charge there EV's not that long ago due to the electric grid rationing. The charging issue is not anywhere close to being solved in most areas of the country. There are pockets of the country were you can find chargers within your car's range. There are however large areas of the country that can't be crossed due to lack of high speed charging. Even here in the heavily populated Northeast we have hardly any high speed chargers in PA,MD, and NJ. You can't take a trip to the shore and make it back.

Looks like a fair number in that area to me. With a range of 300 miles (even at 250), lots of options.

 

[rbdavis808]

Now too many people are saying that math is racist. LOL

Not racist, but definitely anti-innumerative!

One point worth considering is that even if we could agree on which numbers come from cherries and which from meat-and-potatoes (or whatever your favored number source might be), it's still possible to look at the same numbers from different viewpoints. If we were not having present shortages of these materials it would mean that EVs were not selling like hotcakes -- would that be a better state of affairs?

 

[Tell It Right]

If we were not having present shortages of these materials it would mean that EVs were not selling like hotcakes -- would that be a better state of affairs?

The solution is in two words: free market

Who'd a thunk that incentivizing and mandating folks drive EV's (increasing demand for rare earths) while blocking mining and especially producing rare earths (limiting supply) would lead to "having present shortages". LOL

 

[stryker1969]

Hopefully, there will other battery chemistries that can provide the same energy density and reliability as lithium. Sodium is a front-runner.

Im sure they will start making the batteries out of something else maybe that black mountain dew or Guinness who knows

 

[2353]

The solution is in two words: free market

Provided you're one of the 'haves' rather than 'have nots'. Those who don't get the income to support themselves (I.e. food, shelter, pay the bills) don't have the money to buy a safe car, look after their own health or fund training and learning for their children let alone an EV.

The world needs to decarbonise and the sooner the better however it will take time and because of this the world's systems will adapt accordingly.

Completely agree. The world also needs to look at the consequences to future generations by continuing along its merry way and waiting for the 'free market' to account for the costs such as environmental damage that can't be put on the balance sheet today .

 

[Tell It Right]

Provided you're one of the 'haves' rather than 'have nots'. Those who don't get the income to support themselves (I.e. food, shelter, pay the bills) don't have the money to buy a safe car, look after their own health or fund training and learning for their children let alone an EV.

Imagine a world where people who were the loudest at saying they cared about the poor weren't also the same ones trying to force the poor to ditch cheap ICE cars and drive expensive EV's with prices artificially inflated further from tax incentives and mandates.

As someone who worked full time in a hot grocery warehouse for 8 years as a young married adult with a kid (what you call a "have not"), while using my two off days each week to slowly go through college and get a computer science degree so I could later make decent coin (becoming what you call a "have"), I'm glad no one back then in government was "helping" me by forcing me to drive an expensive Cadillac to work and school.

 

[Chiptuck]

The Lithium Supply Crunch Doesn’t Have to Stall Electric Cars

Due to shortages of critical materials and vulnerable supply chains, production of lithium-ion batteries could fall far short of demand. Coordinated action is needed to boost supply in a sustainable way and keep the transition to renewable energy on course.

www.bcg.com

 

[Chiptuck]

Maybe someone made the assumption because you cherry picked a couple of paragraphs out of a large article and then took a ride on the slippery slope and came up with a wild assertion of the industry based on those paragraphs?

Wrong again, I copied and pasted and posted a link to the entire PDF file so everyone could read it. That's not cherry picking and I did read the entire study be what it may. It is no way a wild assertion. It's very much a coming reality. Get your heads out of the sand and leave the Church of Climate Change, Global Warming, or whatever you have to change the name to in the future.

 

[Chiptuck]

View attachment 47917


Looks like a fair number in that area to me. With a range of 300 miles (even at 250), lots of options.

Those are not all high speed chargers and are not along the main roads needed to get somewhere. You must travel out of your way the get to them. There are large gaps on that map along major interstates. Many have wrenches that are under repair or construction that never gets completed.
There are none in the shore resort towns in MD and NJ. Royal Farms has removed theirs.
The other thing is your real range when traveling at 70mph and even higher as out west reduces your range to less then 200 miles with an 100% charge (not practical waiting for when traveling). Try driving on I70 through Kansas to Denver sometime against a headwind at a 75mph speed limit. EV's are not practical at high speed limits.

This past summer I encountered on I-70 entire EA stations removed due to repaving a Walmart. You must detour off your route or stop more frequently to make it past the closed one. Take one stop out of service and you are screwed. Another time they had a off ramp on the interstate closed and detoured you 20 miles to the next exit to turn around and make it back to the charger. This cuts it close when you have no idea if the chargers are going to work or not once you get there.

 

[cmwade77]

Those are not all high speed chargers and are not along the main roads needed to get somewhere. You must travel out of your way the get to them. There are large gaps on that map along major interstates. Many have wrenches that are under repair or construction that never gets completed.
There are none in the shore resort towns in MD and NJ. Royal Farms has removed theirs.
The other thing is your real range when traveling at 70mph and even higher as out west reduces your range to less then 200 miles with an 100% charge (not practical waiting for when traveling). Try driving on I70 through Kansas to Denver sometime against a headwind at a 75mph speed limit. EV's are not practical at high speed limits.

This past summer I encountered on I-70 entire EA stations removed due to repaving a Walmart. You must detour off your route or stop more frequently to make it past the closed one. Take one stop out of service and you are screwed. Another time they had a off ramp on the interstate closed and detoured you 20 miles to the next exit to turn around and make it back to the charger. This cuts it close when you have no idea if the chargers are going to work or not once you get there.

Actually, every single one a high speed charger (minimum is about 50KW all the way up to 350KW), the ones in Brown are restricted, but other than that all are open. There are still a fair number in that area if you filter it to just 200KW and up. Here are just the 200kw+ stations:

Also, as I zoom in more, I get even more stations, even when filtered to 200kw+, but 50kw+ still yields a lot more.

As for practicality, I have done many road trips in my Kona Electric and real world range has been about 225 miles at 85% or so (200 when going against headwind at freeway speeds) to a charge when travelling Freeway Speeds on a vehicle rated at 258 Miles, that is pretty good in my opinion. Oh, and a lot of that freeway speed was up to 85 MPH in the winter (30 to 40 degrees outside or so). And yes, you might have to get off the freeway and drive through a town and actually see something besides the road. In all reality, this is a good thing and has been helping a lot of towns that were dying because they got bypassed by a freeway.

Yes, it does take planning ahead and checking Plugshare and/or the appropriate network's app to see if the chargers are indeed working at present and that part is a shame, but it is entirely doable and able to avoid backtracking unless there is a sudden power outage or such, but then gas stations would be closed in such situations too.

This is from ACTUAL, personal experience driving an EV on long road trips out here in the west and yes, we do occasionally have areas where chargers are far enough apart to be a little nerve racking, but still doable. Is it perfect? No, but is it entirely doable? Absolutely and it is practical? Yes, as long as you are willing to look ahead a little. This reflects about 10,000 miles worth of road trips in an EV with a shorter range than the Ioniq 5 and worse efficency, as I was only getting about 4.3 to 4.4 miles per kwh and in my Ioniq 5, I am getting an average of about 4.8 to 5.1 miles per kwh at freeway speeds and up to 6.6 at slower speeds with a larger battery pack than the Kona had. NOTE: This is a RWD vehicle, which I picked for the longer range. My lowest efficiency so far in the Ioniq 5 has been 4.7 miles per kwh, at this rate a complete 100% charge would get me around 360 miles.

It should also be noted that it is rare that I will turn on the heater for more than a few minutes, but I do run the AC when warm.

 

[Chiptuck]

Actually, every single one a high speed charger (minimum is about 50KW all the way up to 350KW), the ones in Brown are restricted, but other than that all are open. There are still a fair number in that area if you filter it to just 200KW and up. Here are just the 200kw+ stations:
View attachment 47921
Also, as I zoom in more, I get even more stations, even when filtered to 200kw+, but 50kw+ still yields a lot more.

As for practicality, I have done many road trips in my Kona Electric and real world range has been about 225 miles at 85% or so (200 when going against headwind at freeway speeds) to a charge when travelling Freeway Speeds on a vehicle rated at 258 Miles, that is pretty good in my opinion. Oh, and a lot of that freeway speed was up to 85 MPH in the winter (30 to 40 degrees outside or so). And yes, you might have to get off the freeway and drive through a town and actually see something besides the road. In all reality, this is a good thing and has been helping a lot of towns that were dying because they got bypassed by a freeway.

Yes, it does take planning ahead and checking Plugshare and/or the appropriate network's app to see if the chargers are indeed working at present and that part is a shame, but it is entirely doable and able to avoid backtracking unless there is a sudden power outage or such, but then gas stations would be closed in such situations too.

This is from ACTUAL, personal experience driving an EV on long road trips out here in the west and yes, we do occasionally have areas where chargers are far enough apart to be a little nerve racking, but still doable. Is it perfect? No, but is it entirely doable? Absolutely and it is practical? Yes, as long as you are willing to look ahead a little. This reflects about 10,000 miles worth of road trips in an EV with a shorter range than the Ioniq 5 and worse efficency, as I was only getting about 4.3 to 4.4 miles per kwh and in my Ioniq 5, I am getting an average of about 4.8 to 5.1 miles per kwh at freeway speeds and up to 6.6 at slower speeds with a larger battery pack than the Kona had. NOTE: This is a RWD vehicle, which I picked for the longer range. My lowest efficiency so far in the Ioniq 5 has been 4.7 miles per kwh, at this rate a complete 100% charge would get me around 360 miles.

It should also be noted that it is rare that I will turn on the heater for more than a few minutes, but I do run the AC when warm.

That explains your experience. 50kw is not fast enough for me when traveling. When traveling to a destination the last thing I want to do is waste time traveling out of my way through a small town. It would cost me an extra day of travel as it has already has when going around Wyoming on my way to Montana from PA (21 out and 23 stops back) last August. You can't travel I-80 or I-90 and get there. Most of the way I was getting 2.6 to 3.2 for long stretches of I-70 at 75mph. Forget about driving 80mph, the speed limit in many states out there. If you only quick charge to 80% your range is not enough so you sit there and wait as your charger drops until it finally makes it to the 100% you need.
I used PlugShare the whole way and had to have it. It did however have times were it was wrong or too old of a report.

All this being said I still love my I5 and look forward to every drive I take. The car has been flawless so far for over 15,000 miles. A fantastic ride.
Moving around at an EA station to find one that works is not fun either, they are horrendous.

 

[cmwade77]

For me, a road trip is about the journey, not the destination. I mean, are if I need to be there by a certain time, I will push it and even with a 50kw charger, I can do it without taking an extra day. Yeah, it might mean an extra 20 or 30 minutes, but generally I use that time to eat, use the restroom, etc. I mean in my Kona Electric, it seriously only added about 30 minutes each way for going from Long Beach, CA to St George, UT by charging where we stopped for restrooms and such.

Of course my dream trip is to have enough time to do a cross country trip and never get on a freeway once, stopping where it looks fun, no real destination in mind, other than when I need to be back home.

 

[Skyhawk828]

Of course my dream trip is to have enough time to do a cross country trip and never get on a freeway once, stopping where it looks fun, no real destination in mind, other than when I need to be back home.

Gotta admit. That does sound like a dream trip. My wife and I are retired now. I hope to do a version of that dream starting this year. In our case we may have a destination, but no set timeframe for getting there, how long we stay there & just take our time seeing the country.

 

[Socalsp3]

The solution is in two words: free market

Who'd a thunk that incentivizing and mandating folks drive EV's (increasing demand for rare earths) while blocking mining and especially producing rare earths (limiting supply) would lead to "having present shortages". LOL

We're already doing that with spending $500 billion a year on oil subsidies to keep your gas prices cheaper than it should be. Where's the free market? Oh OPEC is a monopoly that sets their own price. Where's the free market? There is no free market in the real world.