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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This post is interpreted from information given on batteryuniversity.com & Dr Dahn's youtube video "Why do lithium-ion cells die? And what can be done about it?" and my own knowledge of various batteries over 44 years.


Firstly, lithium-ion batteries are not yet a perfected technology.


Secondly, there are at least 6 different type of lithium batteries commercially available at present. They are all developed for a particular use and there are more types on the way. The reason we use lithium-ion technology is that it stores more energy than Lead/Acid, Ni Cads, Nickel Metal Hydride for a given size/weight. The 6 types are:-


1980/2008 Lithium Titanate = Li4Ti5O12
1991 Lithium Cobalt Oxide = LiCoO2
1996 Lithium Manganese Oxide = LiMn2O4
1996 Lithium Iron Phosphate = LiFePO4
1999 Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminium Oxide = LiNiCoAlO2
2008 Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide = LiNiMnCoO2


So is it possible to "see" which type is best for vehicles? Yes it is, by viewing SPIDER GRAPHS. Please go to: batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion


I have e-mailed Hyundai UK to ask which type of cell is used in Ioniq but they would not give this "restricted" information. From my own reading on the internet, LG Chem make the cells/batteries for all 3 Hyundai Ioniq models. LG Chem are part of the LG group of companies who also make LG televisions.


LG Chem seem to use one chemistry for their Li-ion batteries (vehicle, solar storage, mobile phones, and laptops etc). That chemistry is shown on their website as NCM or LiNiMnCo2.
That is Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide first commercially available in 2008. They have combined many chemical elements to get the best parts of each type and it seems to have worked.


This type of cell/battery scores high in max current (amps), safety (250oC thermal runaway - does not easily catch fire), life span (1000 - 2000 cycles), cost to produce, and scores particularly well in capacity (how much power it will hold). They are good all round cells.


LG can produce them in many combinations - all with thermal management (heating & cooling) and LGs own Battery Management System algorithms (set of rule for voltage, heating & cooling). LG say that they supply Renault/Nissan, GM, Ford, Daimler, VW, Kia, and of course Hyundai Ioniq.


For me, I want my Ioniq high voltage battery to give good range, perform well in both hot and cold climates, but there is one thing that is most important to me as I keep my cars for many years - I do not ever want to replace the battery at a cost of 7,000 - 8,000 - 9,000 - 10,000 pounds/euros/dollars. I am retired and do not have that type of money now.


The LG Chem battery looks like this: with a life of up to 2000 cycles, and I charge it every other day that is 4000 days . . . .divided by 365 days gives a life of almost 11 years. Very good. If it lasts 1000 charge cycles, then 200 days = 5.5 years. By misusing a battery it may only give 500 cycles and give poor performance in less than 3 years.


The interesting one is the mid point - 1500 charge cycles. That is 3000 days / 365 days = 8.2 years., or just outside the 8 year/125,000 mile warranty (UK). It appears that Hyundai (UK) may have pitched the warranty just about right ! !


So that appears to be what the Ioniq batteries are. Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide. 360 volt. 94 cell. 28Kwh. See LG chem.com/battery materials.
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Comments or questions please.


I will also give rules/conditions on how to make batteries last 10+ years in a future post.
 

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my understanding is the charge controller keeps it in the sweet spot of >20% <80 charge for maximum life


I will see if I can dig out the reference for that,


the state of charge indicator has 18 segments, I have never seen it less than 6 or more than 14 (rarely over 12)


assuming the SOC indicator is linear that means its normal operating range is in the region of 33%-66% (rarely up to 78%)

my salesman said on training they were told it would keep the charge level in the middle 6 segments by design if that helps


this info relates to the hybrid not the EV
 

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How about fast DC charging? In the Ioniq EV manual they advise to avoid it as much as possible. Has it to do with the battery temperature? I also read that it is bad for the battery to keep it 100% charged for longer periods. These seem to be general rules for Li-polymer batteries. Does anyone have "expert" knowledge of this of specific to the Ioniq (EV)?
 

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My understanding is the charge controller keeps it in the sweet spot of >20% <80 charge for maximum life.
I will see if I can dig out the reference for that. The state of charge indicator has 18 segments, I have never seen it less than 6 or more than 14 (rarely over 12) assuming the SOC indicator is linear; that means its normal operating range is in the region of 33%-66% (rarely up to 78%). My salesman said on training they were told it would keep the charge level in the middle 6 segments by design. If that helps, this info relates to the hybrid not the EV
For the Ioniq EV I think such a way of handling keeping it between 20% and 80% is mainly in your own hands. The state of being fully charged up to 100% is in fact 90% of the total capacity, not 80% (it is 28 kWh of the total capacity of 31 kWh, see here, which is 90%). And for close to empty, the car starts a first warning at being as low as 13% or 15% (after which you still have to drive to a charger), and later warnings at around 5%. So, to keep it between 20% and 80% means that you should aim at never charging it for more than 90%, not 100% (can you set a maximal charge in a charging program?), and also keep an eye yourself on when it is going to reach the 20% minimum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
my understanding is the charge controller keeps it in the sweet spot of >20% <80 charge for maximum life


I will see if I can dig out the reference for that,


the state of charge indicator has 18 segments, I have never seen it less than 6 or more than 14 (rarely over 12)


assuming the SOC indicator is linear that means its normal operating range is in the region of 33%-66% (rarely up to 78%)

my salesman said on training they were told it would keep the charge level in the middle 6 segments by design if that helps


this info relates to the hybrid not the EV

All of this is correct but only for the HEV. The hybrid is only charged from the regenerative brakes, whereas the Ioniq PHEV and BEV can be charged on different power ratings.


They are charged from the regen brakes, 3kwAC, 7kwAC, 11kwAC, 22kwAC. The charge controller needs to keep all of these "in the sweet spot". In 43kwDC, 50kwDC,and even 100kwDC charging the "charge control" is done by the charging point.
 

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All of this is correct but only for the HEV. The hybrid is only charged from the regenerative brakes, whereas the Ioniq PHEV and BEV can be charged on different power ratings.


They are charged from the regen brakes, 3kwAC, 7kwAC, 11kwAC, 22kwAC. The charge controller needs to keep all of these "in the sweet spot". In 43kwDC, 50kwDC,and even 100kwDC charging the "charge control" is done by the charging point.
as I said the info was for the hybrid, also the hybrid uses both regen brakes and a starter / generator on the ICE to charge the battery


the onboard charge controller is used for the 13A (trickle) domestic charge lead and the 32A (normal) POD Point boxes
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
It's hard to know exactly what Hyundai engineers bought from LG but we do know that Hyundai has some automotive battery experience and offers a generous warranty.

With respect to Jay, by reading LG Chems' website at lgchem.com/vehicle-battery/car-batteries/differentiation it can be seen that Hyundai Motor Company have been buying LG Chems batteries since 2009/10. As LG have been producing NCM (Nickel Cobalt Manganese) Li-Pos only (?) since 2008, then I guess that is what has been used in all Hyundai HEV, PHEV, & BEV cars since that time. See also lg-chem/global/secondary-cell-battery-materials/product-detail-PDDB0000 This shows which Hyundai vehicles LG have supplied the batteries for over the recent years..


I get the feeling Hyundai do not know too much about the manufacture of Lithium-ion technology, the just "buy it in" from LG Chem
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
as I said the info was for the hybrid, also the hybrid uses both regen brakes and a starter / generator on the ICE to charge the battery


the onboard charge controller is used for the 13A (trickle) domestic charge lead and the 32A (normal) POD Point boxes


I stand corrected.
 

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So, nothing about a maximally allowed degradation percentage?
 

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"But batteries also degrade and lose some usable capacity over time, presenting a less straightforward issue for automakers seeking to reassure customers with warranty coverage. While the Hyundai lifetime warranty does not cover battery-capacity degradation, a few automakers do offer coverage for this."

Probably a call made by the Seoul head office... I am not worried about this position and would bet money that this stance will change as competition hots up in the years ahead (and combined with a decrease in battery prices and better battery technology). Let's say you can get 8 years out of the battery, the BEV world will be a much different marketplace to where it is today. The customers (like us) will get much better value for their money as time passes.
 

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It will be interesting to see if toyota will switch to lithium, since they have claimed that the NiMh have a better setup for constant re- and discharging.
On the other hands, all other modern EV's and PHEV's are using Lithium batteries, so somebody must have tested them.
 

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It will be interesting to see if toyota will switch to lithium, since they have claimed that the NiMh have a better setup for constant re- and discharging.
On the other hands, all other modern EV's and PHEV's are using Lithium batteries, so somebody must have tested them.
Toyota's Prius PHEV has always been lithium-ion. NiMH just won't perform well in the more challenging environment of the PHEV where greater energy density is more of a performance necessity than in an HEV. Toyota is getting away from NiMH even in their HEVs.
 

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The salesman I was speaking to today, peered into his manual and quoted 70%
If 70% is legit..then it seems like very good news.

Snooping around a bit, itlLooks like Nissan warranties at around 70%...but the Nissan warranty it is NOT lifetime :


"In addition to the Lithium-ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship (96 months/100,000 miles, whichever comes first), the Nissan LEAF® Lithium-ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 96 months or 100,000 miles (whichever occurs first) with the 30 kWh battery."​

I'm not aware of any degradation clause for Toyota batteries...correct?


All in all, this seems like good news for potential Ioniq owners. Prius folks will often say that the batteries 'rarely fail'. However, the fact of the matter is that they DO fail. I read plenty of failure messages over on PriusChat. Those folks are stuck with at $3500+ bill. If anything, this may force Toyota to up their warranty game if the Ioniq is successful.
 

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The salesman I was speaking to today, peered into his manual and quoted 70%
Can you get a copy of that document from which he quoted it? It looks like this is kept hidden.
 
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