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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
In the speakev forum somebody got a statement from Hyundai about the battery warranty for the Ioniq Electric; see here.

The battery is guaranteed for 70% charge for 8 years/125 K miles.
 

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That is good to know Jan. I read on a german Nissan leaf forum that they had 5% degradation after about 60.000 km. They can see it since they lose one bar of charge in the display on the dashboard. I wonder if we will see something similar in our dashboards.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
That is good to know Jan. I read on a german Nissan leaf forum that they had 5% degradation after about 60.000 km. They can see it since they lose one bar of charge in the display on the dashboard. I wonder if we will see something similar in our dashboards.
It seems the bars in the Leaf are not linear (also many reported losses there):


1 Loss of seven battery capacity bars (52.5%)
2 Loss of six battery capacity bars (46.25%)
3 Loss of five battery capacity bars (40%)
4 Loss of four battery capacity bars (33.75%)
5 Loss of three battery capacity bars (27.5%)
6 Loss of two battery capacity bars (21.25%)
7 Loss of one battery capacity bar (15%)
8 No loss of battery capacity bar(s)

So the loss of the first bar is 15%, not 5%.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
From studies for other cars it seems that the loss percentage per year may vary roughly from 2% to 5%, say average 3.5%. It is assumed that for the Ioniq the first 10% of loss is compensated by gradually increasing the usable percentage of the battery from 90% to 100%.

This means that the average owner will not have any noticeable loss for the first three years. After that the 3.5% per year can be noticed. But after 7 years (another 4 years) that will be 14% loss added, which is not even close to the 30% specified in the warranty. So the average owner will not reach the point that the warranty plays a role.

For those owners to whom the 5% annual loss applies, they will not see a noticeable loss in the first two years. After that in the next 5 years time they may reach 25% loss, also still under the 30%. A substantial part of this (probably heavy users) group may have reached the 125 K miles already in these 7 years.

When you are in the 2% class you will not have a noticeable loss in the first 5 years and only 4% after 7 years.

So, probably there will not be many cases in which the battery will be replaced based on the warranty.
 

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Yes, but as far as I know, it doesn't cover any degradation. Looks like the UK is getting a better warranty...
Can you elaborate a bit about lifetime warranty doesn't cover degradation? Does that mean US lifetime warranty can only be honored when your battery died or failing?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
You prefer to be in the 2% loss class rather than in the 5% loss class? There are some things you can do yourself, if you want to bother about it!

Although the distance you drive per year is an important factor as well, these are some of the guidelines that may still help you to be close to the 2% class:


  • try to avoid high temperatures by not parking in the full sun when you can also avoid that; also leaving the windows open might help a bit.
  • in high (or very low) temperatures leave it plugged in so that the Battery Management System can do its work
  • do not fully charge the car just to leave it parked: only charge it fully (by scheduling) just before departure; the shorter the times of full charge the better
  • if no full charge is needed, charge it only up to 70 or 80%
  • don't empty the battery often; better is to keep 15 or 20% in it
  • try to make use of rapid chargers not too often

But notice my previous post: there is also a life (even without depending on the warranty) when not always following these guidelines.

For some links, for example, see here or here.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Can you elaborate a bit about lifetime warranty doesn't cover degradation? Does that mean US lifetime warranty can only be honored when your battery died or failing?
I think it also covers cases in which one or more cells of the battery died, which is more probable in cases of malfunctioning. But I would not be surprised if also the 70% rule will be applied world wide. My dealer suggested something like that even while in my country also no 70% rule was communicated officially.
 

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It seems the bars in the Leaf are not linear (also many reported losses there):


1 Loss of seven battery capacity bars (52.5%)
2 Loss of six battery capacity bars (46.25%)
3 Loss of five battery capacity bars (40%)
4 Loss of four battery capacity bars (33.75%)
5 Loss of three battery capacity bars (27.5%)
6 Loss of two battery capacity bars (21.25%)
7 Loss of one battery capacity bar (15%)
8 No loss of battery capacity bar(s)

So the loss of the first bar is 15%, not 5%.
The data shown here are in most cases from 2011. That means that the batteries must be from 2010 or earlier. I think they are not LiPo batteries like in the Ioniq and I assume the battery quality has increased substantially in the last 8-10 years.
Conclusion: these data cannot be used to predict behaviour of Ioniq batteries and probably not even for nowadays Leafs.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G901F met Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Yes, that is always a problem with continuous development. There is a lot of variation tried in batteries, for example, by adding specific chemicals. Only years later you can find out the precise improvements in practice. I never saw a claim that degradation over the years was reduced to half of what it was earlier, for example, so it remains a question how substantial the improvements really are. At this point I assume there still will be degradation that is serious enough to be aware of it.

And note that many of these older Leafs show annual loss percentages up to 10%, so considering the range of 2% to 5% in my above posts was already optimistic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
P.S. These are some recent data from the Tesla Model S, which uses a water cooled Battery Management System, which is considered better than the air-based system the Ioniq and some other EV's use. Also the batteries of Tesla are considered innovative. It seems from the graph below that degradation still exists but does not go further than 10% in a car's lifetime. But we cannot expect from the Ioniq to have the same standard. So I would still count on 15 to 20% degradation eventually.

 

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Degradation seems to slow over time, and the fastest degradation period will generally be hidden from Ioniq drivers. The battery warranty, at least in the UK, stated 70% 'State of Health' -- not, I presume, 70% of original range. If the first ~10% of degradation is hidden from the driver, 70% 'State of Health' would appear as getting 80% of the original range, right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I would agree. But probably lawyers would be needed to answer this for us...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
Yes, it seems to be like that for Li-Polymer batteries, as a linear function of the square root of the number of charging cycles; see here. These are typical graphs they found.

Note that the loss percentages here are relatively low: about 3% for 600 charging cycles, which could be related to about two years almost every day charging. However, in such tests the cycles are done very fast and in that sense do not resemble real world cycles taking place once a day. Keeping the battery charged for a longer time strongly contributes to degradation.
It has been found in other research that indeed the slower real world cycles lead to substantially more degradation than found by fast cycles in the lab. Therefore lab results in this area do not say much about what you actually will get.

 
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The data shown here are in most cases from 2011. That means that the batteries must be from 2010 or earlier. I think they are not LiPo batteries like in the Ioniq and I assume the battery quality has increased substantially in the last 8-10 years.
Conclusion: these data cannot be used to predict behaviour of Ioniq batteries and probably not even for nowadays Leafs.

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Nissan made a significant change in the LEAF batteries sometime in 2013 because it wasn't handling warm weather very well, so my opinion is that any data that includes 2011-2013 LEAFs isn't really applicable to EVs in general.

I haven't seen anything from newer LEAFs though, but it would be interesting to find out how their 30kwh battery packs hold up, considering they're not liquid cooled like the Ioniq's.

I'm guessing that the Ioniq's batteries are more advanced than the current LEAF's though.
 
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