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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys ! What could be the real world range at 225 000 kms ? At 300 000 kms ?

Price of a battery swap in 10 years?
 

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I am very interested in the answer to this question. I'm looking to replace my 2006 Toyota Corolla that i use for my 180 round trip commute to work. So I will easily hit 30k miles per year.
 

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No one knows the answer because at this point there is no answer But Tesla's have surpassed 300KM w batteries extending past their 8 year lifespan with good use/charge still overall.10 years from now the cycle will start over w newer technology, the question I would like to ask is where and how or what is the plan to store/recycle all these used batteries
 

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Nobody has the foggiest idea, but to date battery degradation on EVs with fully fledged battery management systems has proven much less dramatic than initially feared. I think the average is <= 10% in 8 years.
 

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Let's look at the much more familiar ICE. It used to be that an ICEV was warranted for maybe 3 years and 36k miles, but no one was worried that their car would disintegrate at 37k miles. (Later emissions laws pushed that to 70k miles on emissions-related equipment.) Even way back then there were proud souls who bragged that they got 300k, 400k or more miles, simply by taking care of their cars. Furthermore, when the engine finally wore out, no one went to the dealer to buy a brand new factory engine. They got theirs rebuilt, or swapped in a used or rebuilt engine.

There's no reason all this can't apply to EVs as well.

My 2012 i-MiEV pack was originally warranted for 8 years/80k miles. By the time I bought it used, they had already extended that to 10 years/100k miles. Some worry that lithium batteries have a set number of charging cycles, but that means full discharges. They do that so the numbers are consistent and comparable. But shallow discharges are proportionally less of a burden on the pack, and no one does full discharges ever if they can help it. Age is more likely a determining factor, but experience shows it's not much of a worry either. I'm coming up on 10 years on my i-MiEV pack and have so little degradation I can't really be sure there's any - simply changing tires could do more harm than I've seen.

What is probably more important for those seeking long life is repairability. Tha's one reason I'm leaning toward a 5 instead of a Model Y. There is virtually zero aftermarket for Tesla parts and service, and there have been some well-publicized incidents like the journalist who test drove a Model Y with family and dog to see how it would actually work for her. The dog puked, which ran down the one opening in the full-width seat cover she had conscientiously put in place to protect the test car, and it got into a rear seat belt buckle. The Tesla crew told her the buckle was an inseparable part of the entire rear seat assembly and she could be held responsible for the entire cost of replacement. (Something over $1000?)

Also trending these days is the tale of a guy who ran over some road debris in his Model 3, which hit an unprotected (big falure on Tesla's part) plastic hose stub for the cooling system in the battery pack. The pack is considered an unserviceable assembly, so they were going to charge him $16000 for a brand new pack. He got it fixed for $700 (most of which was time spent to research the best approach, which was maybe $50 in parts and labor to graft on a brass fitting). Now he's worried he'll be banned from Superchargers due to his "unauthorized" repair.

Aside from the rather hostile attitude of Tesla toward its customers needing repairs, the main concern for me is that they make their battery packs "unserviceable." People have opened them up, but it's not easy, and doing things like swapping out individual cells is so hard it's not worth it.

So no one will do it. You're stuck with a new pack from Tesla. Or waiting until a used pack becomes available from a wreck, which may require Tesla doing a service to get the pack and car to talk to each other, which they may not do for an unknown pack.

The 5 OTOH, appears to have bolt-on top and bottom covers and looks to be easily removable from the vehicle. (Which is a big question mark for the Y, since one must wonder if the "structural battery pack" can be removed from the front and rear megacastings without the car folding up.)

Having a battery pack that is serviceable means it will be serviced. Meaning that when the time comes, you can take your 5 to an aftermarket shop, have them pull the pack, open it, inspect it and freshen as necessary. Keep in mind that a tired pack frequently has only a few weak cells, possibly only some corroded connections, and swapping in some used but still strong cells can give it a greatly extended life.

And when it finally loses enough capacity to no longer serve as transport, it still has a useful second life as stationary grid storage, so it still has value.

I personally believe this is the biggest disadvantage of owning a Tesla. They have been beaten up for years over right-to-repair, so it may come to pass that they chenge how they do business. For me, as things are now, the new Model Y would have to be a spectacular leap in value to take on the risk it would pose.

BTW, @CiscoKIdd asked about recycling the batteries. There are already pilot plants operating to do just that. They haven't been very busy yet because there have been so few packs to recycle. But rest assured there will be recycling available. One of the biggest concerns about putting millions of new EVs on the road is where the lithium will come from. There will certainly be sufficient demand to keep recycling plants humming.
 

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, the question I would like to ask is where and how or what is the plan to store/recycle all these used batteries
Recycling is planned in Finland by Fortum, our biggest energy company.

 

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Its going to be a NMC battery pack in the Ioniq 5 (My guess is NMC 811), so degradation is probably in the order of ~20% over 1000 cycles. More if its often charged full cycles, a lot of DC fast charging or driven hard(fast accelerations, trailer towing or steep inclines). Less degradation if you take care of it properly.

But its got such a long range that it should not really be an issue if it looses 20% over 10 years, its still going to have plenty of range (if you frequently use the entire range in a day you will probably be trading it in earlier than 10 years anyway)
 

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Its going to be a NMC battery pack in the Ioniq 5 (My guess is NMC 811), so degradation is probably in the order of ~20% over 1000 cycles. More if its often charged full cycles, a lot of DC fast charging or driven hard(fast accelerations, trailer towing or steep inclines). Less degradation if you take care of it properly.

But its got such a long range that it should not really be an issue if it looses 20% over 10 years, its still going to have plenty of range (if you frequently use the entire range in a day you will probably be trading it in earlier than 10 years anyway)
I think they announced NMC811. Would you be concerned for those of us without access to home charging that might have to rely heavily on DCFC (though staying within normal percentage limits except for longer trips)?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Will Hyundai be able and willing to maintain its modular battery advocated in its video ?
 

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@ElFroCampeador nah, hyundai had a very good battery warranty so I would not overthink it. Just charge and drive, if you cant charge at home/work make sure to plug it in whenever you get a chance (like when groceries shopping etc).

If range drops enough that its not working out for you anymore and its out of warranty its probably better to sell the car (than to replace the battery) to someone who its enough for and buy a new one. Second hand prices are going to hold well on these cars and the demand for used evs will be high the next 20 years.

And ofc ask work/landlord/stores if they are thinking of installing chargers, as soon as the demand comes chargers will be everywhere, both ac and dc, its happening here and it will happen in North America too, this is the way :)
 

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@ElFroCampeador nah, hyundai had a very good battery warranty so I would not overthink it. Just charge and drive, if you cant charge at home/work make sure to plug it in whenever you get a chance (like when groceries shopping etc).

If range drops enough that its not working out for you anymore and its out of warranty its probably better to sell the car (than to replace the battery) to someone who its enough for and buy a new one. Second hand prices are going to hold well on these cars and the demand for used evs will be high the next 20 years.

And ofc ask work/landlord/stores if they are thinking of installing chargers, as soon as the demand comes chargers will be everywhere, both ac and dc, its happening here and it will happen in North America too, this is the way :)
I did a little scouting of my office garage today (Hardly anyone is working in the office right now, though it'll theoretically be fully open in the next month or two). There are 8 chargepoint ports available there that I was able to find, and 3 standard wall outlets for granny charging. I'll poke around at work to see if the EV owners find those to be enough. There aren't really chargers at the grocery stores I go to at the moment, The local library has some chargers that were installed a few years ago (so I wouldn't be surprised if they were only 3.6kw), but I could probably spend an hour or two there every few days... I like books. Otherwise, there isn't a lot convenient L2 stuff around.

I've been in contact with my condo board regarding the question of getting some sort of charger added. The problem seems to be as much about where to put them as anything (as the layout of the parking lots does not leave room between the parking lot and sidewalk for a charger to live). I'm trying to instigate the formation of a committee or something to at least come up with an interim solution (the long term solution will undoubtedly require re-configuring the sidewalks to move them back a few inches here and there). I also tried to get in touch with Chargepoint, but they haven't responded in a couple days. Research will continue.
 

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Will Hyundai be able and willing to maintain its modular battery advocated in its video ?
I can't speak for Europe, which may do things quite differently from the US.

In the US, "able" and "willing" are two entirely different and independent things. It's a pretty good assumption that Hyundai would not be willing maintain its modular battery aside from replacing the entire assembly, should the need arise. I would love to be proven wrong, but so far every EV manufacturer has treated battery packs as though they were a technology far too advanced for mere mortal auto service personnel to dare approach.

Which seems rather quaint, since neighborhood car mechanics have been rebuilding engines and transmissions for decades. Are there best practices and safety protocols to follow? Of course there are. But they are new and different, not more complex. No one needs to be a PhD or a NASA tech to work on a battery pack. Of course the other side of this is that no dealerships have engaged in rebuilds for quite awhile now. They just swap assemblies in and out. Hopefully they will change their approach to battery packs (at least the ones that are accessible and service-friendly), and consider the internal systems of a battery pack (cells, modules, coolant pumps, heat exchangers, temp sensors, BMS modules, etc.) as replaceable assemblies. And wouldn't it be nice if it was designed for repair and there were some onboard diagnostics to help determine what needs replacing.

In the US, the aftermarket does what dealers won't do. Wrecking yards will sell the parts off of junked or damaged cars. Some are used as is, some go to refurbishing companies. If the battery packs are serviceable, they are valuable to rebuilders. There is already a growing industry that sells refurbished packs for EVs and hybrids. Not only can normal EV and hybrid owners trade their old pack for a refurbished one, these suppliers also sell individual cells, modules and other parts to hobbyists and custom builders.

In short, in the US Hyundai will not likely get into pack maintenance for its buyers. (Though maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised.) But that's OK, because there will be a variety of other sources for pack repairs. The one thing that might go wrong is if Hyundai does something like detecting if the pack has been removed or altered and bricking the car. But I I doubt it - that's more of a Tesla kind of move (yes, it's happened), and right-to-repair laws are gaining momentum.
 

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I did a little scouting of my office garage today (Hardly anyone is working in the office right now, though it'll theoretically be fully open in the next month or two). There are 8 chargepoint ports available there that I was able to find, and 3 standard wall outlets for granny charging. I'll poke around at work to see if the EV owners find those to be enough. There aren't really chargers at the grocery stores I go to at the moment, The local library has some chargers that were installed a few years ago (so I wouldn't be surprised if they were only 3.6kw), but I could probably spend an hour or two there every few days... I like books. Otherwise, there isn't a lot convenient L2 stuff around.

I've been in contact with my condo board regarding the question of getting some sort of charger added. The problem seems to be as much about where to put them as anything (as the layout of the parking lots does not leave room between the parking lot and sidewalk for a charger to live). I'm trying to instigate the formation of a committee or something to at least come up with an interim solution (the long term solution will undoubtedly require re-configuring the sidewalks to move them back a few inches here and there). I also tried to get in touch with Chargepoint, but they haven't responded in a couple days. Research will continue.
A few points of advice:

Ideally, you might find it best to NOT put the EV charging spots in a 'prime' location. There are still EV haters, luddites and generally small-minded people who will see such a situation and make a stink about EV drivers getting preferential treatment - "What makes them so special?!?' It's best not to go there. And besides, if they're convenient, they'll be ICEd.

But ultimately, it may come down to where the power is, or where you can most easily put it. Another thing to consider is if the parking area is lighted, there is power for the lights. That may, or may not help getting power for EVSEs, or at least outlets.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
What could be the real world range at 225 000 kms ? At 300 000 kms ?
Price of a battery swap in 10 years?
Hyundai presents the IONIQ 5 as being built with a modular battery. See video :
Any hope in terms of maintenance and repair in 10 years time due to modularity?
 

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@djgras modular battery design really only helps if one module needs to be replaced due to damage. All modules will degrade(if the pack is properly cooled) att the same rate and it will be less time consuming to replace the whole pack (and probably cheaper once labour is accounted for).

The bleeding edge right now is skipping the modular design in favour of cell to pack systems to save weight.
 
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