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Here are two cars and two competing ideologies regarding what manufacturers think we want and need in this era of low US gasoline prices. Hyundai gave us the hybrid Ioniq while Honda canceled it's 2-motor Civic hybrid project and instead gives us just the gas turbo for the hatchback model. The two cars have identical wheelbase and similar outside and inside dimensions with similar passenger and cargo-hauling accommodations.

First, if you drive primarily in town with a lot of stop and crawl traffic or long waits at stoplights, the Ioniq will kill the turbo Civic in gas mileage. In heavy traffic, hybrid is the only way to go. On the road, though, the two are nearly equal in fuel economy. Here's a steady-state chart of the Honda Civic sedan with 6-speed manual transmission (the hatchback is not as aero and will get slightly lower numbers):



Here's the thing. The Honda Civic Hatch with a 6-speed manual transmission (the only transmission I would consider) is about $20k vs about $25k for a similarly equipped Ioniq. This turns out to be the Ioniq-killer spec for my purposes. I drive about 13,000 miles per year and more than 70% of that is highway miles. If I assume that the Ioniq will get 10mpg better FE than the Honda Civic Hatch here's how long it takes me to pay the difference in fuel savings:



Wait, it gets even worse for the Ioniq: The Civic Hatch has been out for awhile and dealers are willing to negotiate. I sat in the LX trim (bottom-level trim) Civic Hatch this weekend and was pleasantly surprised at the interior. It looked nicer and more expensive than the SEL trim Ioniq. The seats were pretty good with lots of space for my long legs. What's it like to drive the Civic Hatch? I don't know. Since I'm only interested in the 6-speed manual I didn't test drive it. The dealer says they can't get the 6-speed manuals in for some reason. But I did drive the Ioniq SEL and it was gutless and slow in the extreme. The Civic Hatch will do 0-60 in high 6s and low 7s. The Ioniq manages high 10s and low 11s. The Civic Hatch goes.

The Honda Civic Hatch is ugly. It's not double-butt ugly like the Prius, but it's pretty ugly. It has good looking wheels whereas the Ioniq SEL has a nicer shape but hideous wheels.

So who wins the battle of ideologies from my standpoint? Honda Civic Hatch! The much lower price vs hybrid, the driving dynamics vs hybrid, the simplicity and lighter weight of turbo vs hybrid win out. Did I mention that the Civic Hatch goes?! Why don't I have one? Nobody can get the 6-speed manual. So I wait. It may be that the Ioniq will drop to a more competitive price and get a harder look.
 

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Just from cost point of view, hybrid is not worth at all. With gas price around $2 per gallon you save a tad over $200 per year. Even with gas price double to $4 per gallon it still going to take over 10 years to breakeven. If you switch to full electric the gas saving per year will jump to $400. EV is still a tough sell if there is no incentive and gas price is stable at $2 a gallon.
 

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2 dollars a gallon? pfff.....
Here in Holland we pay about 1.5 euro a litre.
So:
US gallon is 3.78 litres
US Dollar is about 0.92 euro

1.5x3.785 = 5.68euro a gallon is 5.68x0.92 = 5.22 dollar a gallon!!

Even at that pricing it takes a while to 'earn' the cost difference between a hybrid and a similar 'normal' car.

But hé, we buy a hybrid to get low monthly cost and to save the planet, don't we?
 

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2 dollars a gallon? pfff.....
Here in Holland we pay about 1.5 euro a litre.
So:
US gallon is 3.78 litres
US Dollar is about 0.92 euro

1.5x3.785 = 5.68euro a gallon is 5.68x0.92 = 5.22 dollar a gallon!!

Even at that pricing it takes a while to 'earn' the cost difference between a hybrid and a similar 'normal' car.
But hé, we buy a hybrid to get low monthly cost and to save the planet, don't we?
Plus taxes and even insurance fees are waaayyy cheaper with hybrid / electric. So you do save quite alot / month.
For me the yearly tax dropped from 750€ to 150€, when I changed my diesel Citroen C5 to hybrid Ioniq. That alone is 3000€ in 5 years.
If I buy fuel with money I save in taxes compared to my C5, I do get 400 litres/year (with the ridiculous 1,5€/l price), which gives me 8200km's per year - not bad I think.
 

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in the UK we are about £1.20 per litre for 95 ron unleaded petrol

£1.20 * 3.785 = £4.542 / US gallon

according to google today £1 = $1.28

£4.542 = $5.82 / US Gallon

I do 30,000+ a year so payback time for me is quicker, added to that I don't get charged as much tax on my company fuel card as well
 

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.....

So who wins the battle of ideologies from my standpoint? Honda Civic Hatch! The much lower price vs hybrid, the driving dynamics vs hybrid, the simplicity and lighter weight of turbo vs hybrid win out. Did I mention that the Civic Hatch goes?! Why don't I have one? Nobody can get the 6-speed manual. So I wait. It may be that the Ioniq will drop to a more competitive price and get a harder look.
I think you joined the wrong forums :)
 

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To each their own. I seriously considered a Honda Civic hatchback, but after reading in Civic forums about the quality problems with the 10th gen Civic (and having witnessed them in the local dealership), I gave the Civic a pass. There's about $1500 price difference between comparably equipped Civic hatchbacks and Ioniqs where I live, and the hatchback is selling so well that local dealers are not willing to discount it. I got $1500 off the MSRP on my Ioniq plus a very generous trade allowance, so it was a no brainer.
 

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I think if you do enough miles you will always find the faults. I have encountered all the common faults known to people on the cars I have owned but then I do a fair mileage. I like the Hyundai 5 year guarantee and was pleased with out first Hyundai I went back for another and ended up with the Ioniq....I think we bought both our cars within an hour of trying them and they were the only ones we drove....I take the view if I get in it and like it why look further....the car will be changed at some point so look again then and by that time everything will be different again :) Granted I could maybe find something better but there is no perfect car. My Ioniq is the best car I have driven.

If someone is looking for 0-60's of 6 or 7 seconds I do wonder why they are looking at a hybrid in the first place!
 

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If someone is looking for 0-60's of 6 or 7 seconds I do wonder why they are looking at a hybrid in the first place!
they need a tesla with ludicrous mode instead :)

thing is as you say no car suits everyone's needs, or else you would have no need for hyper cars, kit cars, 1.0l corsa with baked bean can exhausts (and the yoof driving it) etc

it all depends on the driver being able to understand the pro's and con's of the cars they are considering as well as understanding their own requirements and if the car fits the image they wish to be associated with
 

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Why are people trying to sell us a Honda at an Ioniq Forum. Admins please kick those guys out. It is a comparison between apples and pears.Bulls....t.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
...If someone is looking for 0-60's of 6 or 7 seconds I do wonder why they are looking at a hybrid in the first place!
Before Hyundai announced the Ioniq, the Honda Civic Hatch was at the top of my list. Before my test drives of the Niro and Ioniq, I thought that one of those two was going to be my next car. It was the test drives that forced me to reconsider my position. The Ioniq and Niro could barely get out of their own way. They were the most sluggish, gutless cars I have ever driven. My sister's hybrid Sonata isn't like that at all.

So now I've backed up and looked again at the Civic Hatch and find that it's a whopping $5k cheaper, nicer inside, and gets great fuel economy. The performance is a bonus. I have not driven the HCH because the stick isn't available yet, so the Ioniq and Niro are not out. It's not looking good for Hyundai and Kia, though.
 

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Before Hyundai announced the Ioniq, the Honda Civic Hatch was at the top of my list. Before my test drives of the Niro and Ioniq, I thought that one of those two was going to be my next car. It was the test drives that forced me to reconsider my position. The Ioniq and Niro could barely get out of their own way. They were the most sluggish, gutless cars I have ever driven. My sister's hybrid Sonata isn't like that at all.

So now I've backed up and looked again at the Civic Hatch and find that it's a whopping $5k cheaper, nicer inside, and gets great fuel economy. The performance is a bonus. I have not driven the HCH because the stick isn't available yet, so the Ioniq and Niro are not out. It's not looking good for Hyundai and Kia, though.
Odds are you can find them on the used car market, some as Demos from dealerships, so right there you can save some more money if you want to go that route. But that all depends on a number of things. Buying used isn't for everyone.
 

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Jay, where did you get that mpg chart? It is effectively an incredible straight line graph that should be on a log scale to be that straight. It shows a linear mpg drop with speed and that is impossible as increased drag is related to the square of the speed. Look just at the EPA rating of the Honda, 42 mpg on the highway. The graph claims 49 mpg at 70 mph. That is a great, but unbelievable number.

I'll leave it to you to pencil out the economics, but your current assumptions appear to be wrong. Gas prices can only trend up over time, and most pencil jobs do not take that into account. But any low cost hybrid will recover its extra costs even with low priced fuel over its 15 year presumptive lifetime. If you envision a shorter period of ownership, or buy a used hybrid, then the calculations can change significantly.

There is also the environmental benefits of going green. If you care about the health of your children (and their children) and their economic future, well, you know what to do. Long term planning is hard, I know. Short term, you can pencil any decision to meet the conclusion you desire.
 

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I just traded my Civic Touring for an Ioniq SEL trim today.

The Civic had respectable MPGs (35-42), but can't beat the Ioniq's numbers. The Ionic was much quieter and more nimble.
 

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Why are people trying to sell us a Honda at an Ioniq Forum. Admins please kick those guys out. It is a comparison between apples and pears.Bulls....t.
Jay, where did you get that mpg chart? It is effectively an incredible straight line graph that should be on a log scale to be that straight. It shows a linear mpg drop with speed and that is impossible as increased drag is related to the square of the speed. Look just at the EPA rating of the Honda, 42 mpg on the highway. The graph claims 49 mpg at 70 mph. That is a great, but unbelievable number.
This thread turns out to give the impression of advertising the Civic based on false information. This is really bad. Should it be removed, or is there a plausible explanation?
 

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This thread turns out to give the impression of advertising the Civic based on false information. This is really bad. Should it be removed, or is there a plausible explanation?
Calm down everyone. There's nothing wrong in discussing non-Ioniqs here. The graph is taken from cleanmpg.com as indicated in the graph itself. There is hardly a more reliable source for fuel efficiency discussions. See also these threads here

http://www.ioniqforum.com/forum/129...ompetition/1626-2017-hyundai-elantra-eco.html
http://www.ioniqforum.com/forum/129...ld-record-lowest-fuel-consumption-hybrid.html

And compared to the Elantra Eco chart that was not disputed at all, the Civic chart looks reasonable. And before you question the numbers please check how much effort is taken for obtaining these numbers. Most of the graphs are provided by Wayne Gerdes himself.

See also here for a collection of various such mpg charts Steady State Speed vs Fuel Economy results | CleanMPG
However I could not find the Civic sedan in this thread. So it's probably generated during some other test.

Let's also not forget that these are steady state numbers. There is no benefit for a hybrid in steady state fuel economy. All that's relevant is aerodynamics, rolling resistance, internal losses (other cars aren't bad either) and engine efficiency (diesels would be of similar efficiency as the atkinson cycle)
 

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Why are people trying to sell us a Honda at an Ioniq Forum. Admins please kick those guys out. It is a comparison between apples and pears.Bulls....t.
Nobody wants to sell you anything. And what is wrong with a comparison? Or do you only like comparisons where your favoured car wins? I don't want this forum to turn in a fan site that starts revolving around itself.

And you obviously oversaw that the whole section here is titled
"2017+ Hyundai IONIQ Versus The Competition"

So please explain, why should a Civic sedan not be a valid competitor?
 

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Jay, where did you get that mpg chart? It is effectively an incredible straight line graph that should be on a log scale to be that straight. It shows a linear mpg drop with speed and that is impossible as increased drag is related to the square of the speed. Look just at the EPA rating of the Honda, 42 mpg on the highway. The graph claims 49 mpg at 70 mph. That is a great, but unbelievable number.
The source of this graph is cleanmpg.com as properly labelled on the graph. See my reply to Jan or google yourself whether you still think that is unbelievable after having informed yourself about the source.

Looking at graphs spanning a broader range and featuring more points, it becomes obvious the shape is more complex. It looks like that mpg has a maximum at 30-40 mph (not really a surprise) followed by a tail (well also no surprise that the curve asymptotically approaches zero at really high velocities - of course, the engine will fail beforehand...). Also you might notice that the transition region is around 50-75mph.

Thus, if I combine a region with a maximum (i.e. a concave function) with a region with an asymptotic tail (i.e. a convex function) there needs to be an inflection point in-between. And surprise, surprise, you can nicely fit a straight line in this region as the second derivative is by definition zero.

I hope we all remember this little bit of school maths. :nerd:

And in case you doubt this, I would be very interested if you could compile a model yourself and present a theoretical shape of the curve. I have to admit that I gave up. >:)

I'll leave it to you to pencil out the economics, but your current assumptions appear to be wrong. Gas prices can only trend up over time, and most pencil jobs do not take that into account. But any low cost hybrid will recover its extra costs even with low priced fuel over its 15 year presumptive lifetime. If you envision a shorter period of ownership, or buy a used hybrid, then the calculations can change significantly.
I think this is exactly what he is doing. Calculating based on different assumptions. That's not per se wrong. And by the way, I would never calculate with a lifetime of 15 years...

There is also the environmental benefits of going green. If you care about the health of your children (and their children) and their economic future, well, you know what to do. Long term planning is hard, I know. Short term, you can pencil any decision to meet the conclusion you desire.
Fully agree with this. And this is why I myself also decide in favour of a low consumption car even if I might be paying a premium for the more complex technology. But depending on the usage (e.g. long highway drives at steady speed), the Civic might not be much worse than any hybrid. We should keep in mind that the Ioniq unfortunately has a direct injection and is thus prone to particle emissions and apparently has some CO emission problems under load (German car test by the ADAC). So it's not all green on the Ioniq side. I don't have any information on the Civic though.
 
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