Hybrid or PHEV? Non-electric motorway mpg - Page 4 - Hyundai Ioniq Forum
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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 25-04-19, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SEvans View Post
Use as a `large battery hybrid` is seemingly encouraging users to avoid much of the benefit of eco-driving!
Why?? This is the exact point of my argument. Dump the PHEV’s charging equipment (few pounds off we go) turning it effectively to HEV, program the electronics to never allow the SOC to go below the magic point of no return of 20% (don’t tell me it’s not possible, or you contradict yourself), and there you are - a hybrid with 80 mpg according to your figures. Beat that, Hyundai ‘s lowly competition! Should I apply for a technology consultant job at Hyundai yet?

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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 26-04-19, 05:17 AM
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Use as a `large battery hybrid` is seemingly encouraging users to avoid much of the benefit of eco-driving!
Don't quite see that . A larger , more powerful battery system would only encourage me and , I suspect , most members to drive more fume free miles .
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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 26-04-19, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by PHEV-DE View Post
Does your PHEV default to HEV mode when you start up, or did I misunderstand?
Mine defaults to EV mode (which for me at least makes more sense)

Hybrid mode has two distinct operations:
1: Starting from a full, or nearly full battery the regen mode is active, permitting the car to add juice to the battery from correct driving technique and regeneration itself. Driven properly, this can restore SOC to a car being driven. Yes, this is normal hybrid mode!
2: However, once the battery depletes to a certain level (15-20% or around the blue bars on the battery meter) the recharge mode changes to a simple hybrid mode that restores only the juice to the level needed for that 15-20% battery level and no more.

You are clearly depleting the battery to this level, and therefore massively losing out on the cars actual capability!

Perhaps to make things simple we should separate these into `Hybrid Modes 1 and 2`as this is clearly something that is not being understood..?
Hybrid Mode 1 allows for full recovery of the battery system (if driven properly) whereas Mode 2 allows recovery only of the basic level to enable continued use of Hybrid Mode 2 but locked only to it's modest level.

YOU DO NOT drive straight into consumed battery level (Hybrid Mode 2) as the level of recovery and usage can be far greater, and repetitive if you DONT. Mode 1 is the use to be aimed for.

So it follows that if you travel from A to B where you exceed the plain electric range and accidentally or deliberately allow the car to drop into the Mode 2, you will not benefit from additional battery capacity or restoration of SOC. I have demonstrated this to be worth about 20 UK MPG difference in average mileage on UK roads, and NOT counting short local journeys that can be electric-only. This is far from a one-off electric benefit - consider it as the gift that keeps on giving.

Reading the manual explains this quite clearly.

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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 26-04-19, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by chunga68 View Post
Don't quite see that . A larger , more powerful battery system would only encourage me and , I suspect , most members to drive more fume free miles .

Correct, Although there are company car drivers taking benefit from the allowance who never plug the car in, so end up running it the same as a `normal` Hybrid.

Personally, driving the local roads on electric-only has proven to be a far larger benefit than I first thought - not through the mpg benefit but rather through the environmental impact.

Of course, noiseless driving does mean one has to look out for OAP's and cretins on cycles as they are less aware of the presence of the car - I look on it as `thinning the herd` and look forward to their annihilation to benefit the gene pool as additional benefit to number reduction on the Earth !

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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 26-04-19, 07:14 AM
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Generally I agree with what you wrote there - just some different terminology used (what you are calling ‘normal hybrid mode’, I was calling ‘EV mode’ and what you called ‘simple hybrid mode’, I was calling ‘hybrid mode’)

The one part that I completely disagree with (in my personal use case) is:

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Originally Posted by SEvans View Post
You are clearly depleting the battery to this level, and therefore massively losing out on the cars actual capability!
Since almost all my journeys are within EV only range, and as I can charge at home partly from solar and therefore (effectively) at zero cost I almost never get down to the point where it switches mode. For me the main capability that I bought the car for was the ability to use zero petrol on my daily commute.

I cannot and have not at any point commented on your MPG figures :-)

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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 26-04-19, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by PHEV-DE View Post
Generally I agree with what you wrote there - just some different terminology used (what you are calling ‘normal hybrid mode’, I was calling ‘EV mode’ and what you called ‘simple hybrid mode’, I was calling ‘hybrid mode’)

The one part that I completely disagree with (in my personal use case) is:



Since almost all my journeys are within EV only range, and as I can charge at home partly from solar and therefore (effectively) at zero cost I almost never get down to the point where it switches mode. For me the main capability that I bought the car for was the ability to use zero petrol on my daily commute.

I cannot and have not at any point commented on your MPG figures :-)

Well, to be a nit-picker, if you are only charging for those few miles, and are persistently using a home charge, you are still using paid-for `juice` for those miles, just that the cost is hidden. Unless you add solar mileage solely and expressly for your car benefit there is still a `cost` as the solar gain is neither benefiting the Grid nor your consumption bills.

The mileage benefit will accrue, but only in proportion to total mileage so the nett gain to your MPG is only gaining slowly - still better than depleting!

But to query what you said here:
Quote:
In my PHEV if I drive in EV mode (and NOT in Sport), without the heating on (climate system turned completely off), and do not accelerate hard or drive at more than 140 km/h, the ICE does not start at all until the SOC gets down to around 15-20%.

At this point the car forces itself to HEV mode and after a few more minutes the ICE starts so that the battery stays around 15-20%. For the rest of the journey (until the next plug-in) ICE starts and stops, and the battery stays between 15 and 20%
or so.
If you are witnessing this you ARE using all available battery mode. You should charge more often, or learn to drive to recover mileage via recharge or regen... You do not want the car to drop to this level of SOC, or you limiting the recharge and the use of the car to hybrid mode for the reasons stated.

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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 26-04-19, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by SEvans View Post
Well, to be a nit-picker, if you are only charging for those few miles, and are persistently using a home charge, you are still using paid-for `juice` for those miles, just that the cost is hidden. Unless you add solar mileage solely and expressly for your car benefit there is still a `cost` as the solar gain is neither benefiting the Grid nor your consumption bills.
Indeed, my use of the words 'partly' and '(effectively) free' were indeed related to the same point you're making here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEvans View Post
You do not want the car to drop to this level of SOC, or you limiting the recharge and the use of the car to hybrid mode for the reasons stated.
On a long journey (beyond EV range) I agree there is no benefit not to drop all the way down at the start of the journey, but at the end of the journey the target is that the mode switches itself in coasting difference of the drive, like this:

EV (30 km or so) -> HEV (xxx km) -> EV (until forced mode switch) -> Coasting to drive without ICE starting.

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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 26-04-19, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by SEvans View Post
Hybrid mode has two distinct operations:
1: Starting from a full, or nearly full battery the regen mode is active, permitting the car to add juice to the battery from correct driving technique and regeneration itself. Driven properly, this can restore SOC to a car being driven. Yes, this is normal hybrid mode!
2: However, once the battery depletes to a certain level (15-20% or around the blue bars on the battery meter) the recharge mode changes to a simple hybrid mode that restores only the juice to the level needed for that 15-20% battery level and no more.

You are clearly depleting the battery to this level, and therefore massively losing out on the cars actual capability!

Perhaps to make things simple we should separate these into `Hybrid Modes 1 and 2`as this is clearly something that is not being understood..?
Hybrid Mode 1 allows for full recovery of the battery system (if driven properly) whereas Mode 2 allows recovery only of the basic level to enable continued use of Hybrid Mode 2 but locked only to it's modest level.

YOU DO NOT drive straight into consumed battery level (Hybrid Mode 2) as the level of recovery and usage can be far greater, and repetitive if you DONT. Mode 1 is the use to be aimed for.

So it follows that if you travel from A to B where you exceed the plain electric range and accidentally or deliberately allow the car to drop into the Mode 2, you will not benefit from additional battery capacity or restoration of SOC. I have demonstrated this to be worth about 20 UK MPG difference in average mileage on UK roads, and NOT counting short local journeys that can be electric-only. This is far from a one-off electric benefit - consider it as the gift that keeps on giving.

Reading the manual explains this quite clearly.
Which pages.
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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 26-04-19, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by PHEV-DE View Post
Indeed, my use of the words 'partly' and '(effectively) free' were indeed related to the same point you're making here.



On a long journey (beyond EV range) I agree there is no benefit not to drop all the way down at the start of the journey, but at the end of the journey the target is that the mode switches itself in coasting difference of the drive, like this:

EV (30 km or so) -> HEV (xxx km) -> EV (until forced mode switch) -> Coasting to drive without ICE starting.

This makes the erroneous assumption that starting with a full battery, and using it to near depletion is the most advantageous way to drive the PHEV...

I disagree. The ability to use and reuse the electrickery benefits the car in several different ways:

1: Having more of, and easy access to, battery assistance benefits the user more than a modest amount of battery-only use on start up. Simple speed:distance equation not applicable to out and back journeys that are short distance only.
2: Battery-only (electric) use is meaningless as speeds increase - at higher speeds the car still engages the ICE and therefore having more battery available for these periods benefits mileage as the combined mileage is greater, the and average speeds higher... A modest amount of assistance from the battery can be more beneficial than a short distance on electric-only. Again, this varies according to re-charge arrangements as if one can plug-in regularly then it alters the relationship, obviously.

I used to use a similar approach to yours on my regular 180-mile commute until I realised that depleting the battery that much so early in the journey costs fuel (ICE) use - and recharge capability later on, limiting the overall range performance to combined ICE/Motor unnecessarily.
Now I use full Hybrid mode (Mode 1) from the start of the trip until the last few miles before arrival. Same coming back: Combined use is better for overall frugality with any marginal extra benefit from battery-only use restricted until the last 5-7 miles. This leaves juice available without the need to plug-in at home or en-route and with no cost...

I restored charge on the plug for the first time this week just last night - only because I was working from home today and knew I would need to go about 15 miles there-and-back to a quick meeting. I find the pay-it-forward approach to be more useful and of greater economy than the use-it-til-you-lose-it then run as a Hybrid method.

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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 26-04-19, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by SEvans View Post
2: Battery-only (electric) use is meaningless as speeds increase - at higher speeds the car still engages the ICE
I tested this, and can get up to 140 km/h (87 mph) without the ICE starting, as long as I don't accelerate hard. Above 140 km/h ICE seems to start no matter how gentle I am on the throttle.

By comparison to slower speeds, the kWh per km is (of course) really high, as would the consumption of any vehicle be.

On the odd occasion I feel the need to drive between 140km/h and 160 km/h (or whatever the top speed is), getting there quickly is clearly having a higher priority than energy conservation / financial considerations

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