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Mazda Claims There Is No Demand for Electric Vehicles

24K views 112 replies 30 participants last post by  onionpeel 
#1 ·
https://electrek.co/2017/03/07/mazda-no-pressure-from-customers-to-make-electric-vehicles/

That's OK, Mazda. Your cars are poo anyway.

Mazda announced last year that they will be forced to launch an electric car in California to comply with the zero-emission mandate around 2019, but that’s the only reason they are doing it.
The Japanese automaker is one of the last few major automakers with no interest in electric vehicles and it now explained why: demand.

The company doesn’t see demand for electric vehicles. That’s what the president of Mazda France, Phillipe Geffroy, told CTV News last week:
“There is no real pressure coming from our customers for alternative fuel vehicles. Both in the US and Europe a minority of either wealthy customers, or companies willing to play the ecological image are buying EV,”

That’s quite a surprising statement today, but less so coming from someone at Mazda since again, the company has shown no to little interest in EVs.
It’s not clear on what they are basing their perception of low consumer interest in electric vehicles aside from the wealthy, but that has been a strong talking point from automakers and the oil industry for a long time now.

The*argument*is less convincing in 2017 when Tesla has over 400,000 reservations for the Model 3 and electric vehicles in a country like Norway represent over 30% of new passenger vehicles.
There’s no reason for customers not to want affordable long-range electric vehicles. In*Geffroy’s home country, Renault’s ZOE is having an increasing success and with an available starting price of ~$20,000 after incentive and before gas savings, it’s not only for*wealthy people.
In order to make EVs affordable, automakers need to mass produce them and this is where things have been more difficult.

Mazda has seen its production and sales increase significantly over the last few years to over 1.5 million vehicles in 2016. If it wants to keep the momentum, the Japanese automakers will have to do more than to*introduce vehicles only to comply with zero-emission mandates.

The company keeps betting on its*fuel-efficient SkyActiv technology to meet requirements and it’s easy to see why they would think that it’s a winning strategy since for the fourth year running, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) named Mazda the most fuel-efficient car maker in America.

But internal combustion engines are plateauing in term of efficiency and they will eventually have to go electric in order to keep improving. At least, Geffroy said that Mazda*keeps “working on electric, hybrid or hydrogen” powertrains, but the company doesn’t seem close to commercialization.
 
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#2 ·
What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say.. no demand for them, but were creating one because of demand for them. ?? Or did I read that wrong.
I used to like Mazda till i read that.
The biggest reason for any car manufacturer to go EV - fossil fuels are not endless. And this is a fact even climate change deniers can agree with.
 
#5 ·
Does Trump have shares in Mazda? That could explain a lot. Fact. Or alternative fact.

Either way what tripe. If demand wasn't there there would not be over 400,000 pre orders of Tesla 3.

Moronic decision backed up by little or no real basis in reality. Are we sure Trump isn't behind Mazda?
 
#8 ·
I wouldn't say Mazda cars are 'poo'...we have had three of them and mechanically they have been extremely reliable. Still have our 2004 mazda MPV with 170,000-ish miles. It is a good 'beater' car to drive in snow and to haul stuff ( 30 bags of mulch, etc.. ).

However, all three of them rusted like no other vehicles I have ever seen. I really hope they have gotten the rust issue under control with the new models! We will never even consider buying another one until they get the rust issue figured out!
 
#10 ·
I wouldn't say Mazda cars are 'poo'...we have had three of them and mechanically they have been extremely reliable.
This is probably true. I am basing that belief on a very old, long-held idea that Fords are poo, because they are IMO, and Mazdas have Ford blood in them. I've read that over the years Mazdas have slowly been weaning themselves off of Ford so today's Mazda is probably much less poo. The stigma is still there for me so I haven't even looked at them, ever.
 
#9 ·
So same reason Honda declined to import the rather great Honda Fit/Jazz hybrid to the US, no market. While this make little sense for a car already under production, it is incredibly costly to produce a low volume electric and there are no profits. They are only doing for access to the large California market (and I think 9 other states that mirror CA laws). Think of how many Leafs Nissan sells versus their ICE models, it is a very small percentage (global figures are that EVs are 0.15 percent of the total market). As far as I know, not a single company (including Tesla) have amortized the cost of EVs and have turned a profit, and most admit openly that the cars are subsidized with lower than cost selling prices.

Of course, EV's will become profitable if they ever become mainstream, or can compete on price with ICE cars. Companies such as Hyundai are taking a long term view of things to their credit, but as you can see, their timing is incredibly bad in markets such as the US where fuel is not highly taxed (not even high enough to maintain roads or begin to compensate for pollution).
 
#12 ·
It's a shame that Mazda doesn't at least get into the hybrid game. I think that they make the best looking mid range sedan at the price, and would love to see a 3/6 hybrid. My friend has a 2014 6, and that car is great. very comfortable, well equipped, and looks very sleek on the outside, but I would love if they could make one that gets closer to 40-45 mpg combined as opposed to 30 combined. It's still good, but I feel it could be better.
 
#14 ·
Totally agree with Mazda's position. It costs hundreds of millions of dollars to develop a car and sometimes much more. The demand for the BEVs at the price point that they would have to ask to recover their design costs is zero. Instead, the design costs are borne by people like me that wouldn't touch an electric car with a 10-foot pole. It's just one of the many ways that other people must help buy rich peoples' EVs. Fiat-Chrysler's president, Sergio Marchionne, begged people not to buy their electric car because it was strictly a compliance vehicle and they lost money on every one they sold. I would much rather see Mazda and the other car makers give the peoples republic of california the middle finger and pull out of that state than to have to subsidize, yet again, other people's BEV when I buy my car.
 
#15 ·
Note Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, and Vermont have joined Califorina's Zero Emission Vehicle program. In Canada, late last year the province of Quebec has joined as well.

Then you have European countries like Norway and the Netherlands who are banning the sales of gas powered cars by 2025. India is pushing to have all their cars be electric by 2030 and Germany is also considering it.

It's going to be a growing list of states, provinces and countries that any car company would have to pull out of in order to ignore the electric market.

Meanwhile, we are on the Hyundai Ioniq forum, so of course I'll mention that as a smart way of making an electric car with it also being a hybrid car and even a plugin car, instead of starting from scratch which is bound to be more expensive. Also the price of car batteries continue to drop year after year, making it cheaper to produce electric vehicles.

Back in 1999, Toyota was losing approximately $17,000 per Prius that they sold. That year they sold only 15,200 Prius and as of January 2017 they have sold an cumulative of 6.1 million, which is about 61% of the hybrid market. It's gone from Toyota losing money on each car to being very profitable and even helping their brand. Other car companies had to play catch up as far as hybrids are concerned. These car companies who ignore the electric market risk the same problem of falling behind and then having to play catch-up later at great cost.

Meanwhile Mazda and other car companies have spent billions on investing into hydrogen fuel-cell cars. One of the reasons that Mazda might be against electric vehicles is because they had bet billions on a different technology.
 
#16 · (Edited)
It's public relations talk.

I like Mazda. They make some of the funnest to drive, affordable cars on the market, and the "Zoom Zoom" philosophy extends to their entire range of vehicles, not just their sports cars. Mazda has some of the best ICE technology, and their vehicles are consistently among the most fuel efficient in their class. So I don't think it's fair to accuse the company of not being environmentally conscious just because they are delaying getting into the EV game as long as possible. You have to remember that Mazda is the smallest of the major auto manufacturers so they do not have the manufacturing and R&D capabilities to produce vehicles using as wide a range of platforms. They have concentrated on developing ICE as far as possible over the past 10 years, and I believe they have done a very good job at it and should be given credit for pushing the envelope in this area. Since ICE vehicles will still likely make up 80-90% of the global market in 2020, improvements in ICE will likely have a more significant environmental impact than simply going alternative fuel.

I think the closing paragraphs of the article provide a good context for Mazda's caution:
In that respect he, like most in the industry, are concerned that increasing regulation could force something to market before it's truly ready. And it is the same concern that tempers his enthusiasm regarding other technological developments within the industry such as autonomous driving and the potential for things like car-sharing and mobility on demand. "What can be worrying is how regulations evolve -- especially their slow progress or their instability because if the regulations are not stable no one can invest in the adequate technologies nor implement them," he explains.
Because it is such a small company, Mazda can't afford to make a mistake in choosing a platform for their alternative fuel vehicles. We're still in the Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD (or VHS vs. Betamax for us old-timers) stage of alternative vehicles. Imagine if you were one of the companies that invested big in HD-DVD or Betamax? A mistake like that would likely cause the company to go under.

And Mazda has made some progress. They've had an EV version of the Mazda 2 (Demio) in Japan since 2012, and their public position is that they will have a mainstream electric/hybrid vehicle by 2019.
 
#18 ·
Mazda is not the only major automaker falling behind. Suzuki doesn't have hybrids or electrics in production either. I think there are others as well. I bet you Mazda knows its coming, they will just spend money to buy/use the patents of other manufacturers and skip all the R&D costs. Toyota has already offered their patents for free for their hybrid technology.
 
#19 ·
Toyota has already offered their patents for free for their hybrid technology.
Do you have a source for this statement? They do have a patent sharing agreement with Ford because of significant overlap than any generosity; basically, both companies developed and patented the same technologies, and both would be infringing of each other's patents without this agreement. The costs of litigation would be astounding and profit neither company.

Toyota did open up fuel cell patents they own for sharing back in 2015. I'm not sure that qualifies for a hybrid technology label.
 
#21 ·
Thanks, that is interesting. A business relationship but not exactly patent sharing. Licensing perhaps. So a Mazda Japanese market hybrid with a Mazda engine and Toyota hybrid part since 2013. Hadn't heard of this car before.

Licensing confirmed. I found an article saying Mazda has been a licensee to Toyota hybrid powertrain since 2010.

The Mazda 3 Hybrid, called the Axela in Japan, gets 73.5 mpg in Japan's efficiency testing versus 87.2 mpg for a similarly equipped Prius. Some of that is likely aerodynamics as the Axela is a sedan. But the motor is more powerful, developing total torque figures 50% higher for the Mazda. Similar market proposition to Hyundai's marketing, more value and base features for the same money.
 
#25 ·
Yup, Mazda gets consistent kudos for handling. A Mazda 3 Hybrid will have different weight distribution and will have to have suspension tuned differently. It could even handle better. Often battery weight lowers the center of gravity, which is almost always better. In addition, heavier cars usually ride smoother due to inertial effects as well as better sprung to unsprung weight ratios.
 
#30 ·
The 2nd link indicates that Toyota is only offering its fuel cell and related patents for royalty-free use, not it's larger trove of ICE/electric hybrid technology.

Earlier this year, Toyota opened more than 5,680 fuel-cell and related patents for royalty-free use, including industry leading fuel-cell technology used in the Toyota Mirai – a hybrid vehicle with the petrol tank replaced by hydrogen tanks.
It's not accurate for Toyota to refer to the Mirai as a "hybrid vehicle" in the traditional sense since the Mirai only has a single motor powering the vehicle.
 
#28 ·
And then Nissan is going a different way altogether. Their cars will drive like an electric, but the battery will only be recharged via an internal petrol engine (and presumably regenerative braking). It may feel the same to the driver, but it doesn't address environmental and fuel economy - converting petrol into energy to turn wheels is about half as efficient as using electricity to do the same thing.
 
#29 ·
Although the Honda Accord Hybrid is a series hybrid doing just that with truly excellent mpg, and the Volt is in that behavior most of the time after the battery is depleted with OK efficiency (40 mpg versus 50 mpg of the Honda). This is also how diesel locomotives work.
 
#33 ·
#35 ·
pmiddeld, BEVs are more polluting than HEVs if the electric source is primarily coal. In the US, filthy coal is still the primary fuel source for the electric grid, although natural gas is a close second.
Although I wished your president would change that for the better, I think that is not going to happen. However, all the fossile fuel combusted in one place, with the possiblity to clean the exhaust gases is still better than ICE cars that eject their exhaust gases unsufficiently cleaned all over the place.
 
#34 ·
one option will be a sort of park and ride type scheme on the edge of cities with a fleet of either rental type EV's or autonomous EV's to help keep ICE cars out of cities


biggest thing I see holding back EV's is the charge times and rapid chargers, but I think EV's have a limited life due to this, what will replace them ?, possibly more fuel cell type vehicles as far quicker recharge times so long as the Hydrogen is not made by splitting methane etc
 
#36 ·
I see hydrogen fuel replacing batteries in say 10-15 years. Hydrogen can be produced from sea water, but requires lots of energy. It only makes sense to use a renewable resource or nuclear to do that. Transportation and storage of hydrogen is challenging, think of the 'boom' factor if you get it wrong. Hydrogen is comparatively as efficient as electricity to produce energy.
 
#37 ·
Agreed batteries are too low energy density to be viable, the boom factor is not the real problem. The challenges are more to do with hydrogen leakage (it is such a very small molecule) and having to store it under very high pressure. An even bigger problem is incentives for corporations and governments who are dependent on revenues based on oil and gas. Who is going to build and pay for the generation and distribution of hydrogen?
 
#38 ·
#47 ·
shells answer is to produce the Hydrogen on site using electrolysis using renewable energy


Shell launches its first hydrogen refuelling station in the UK | Shell United Kingdom





that solves the transport issues :)
While in principle, this is good news, without some details, it sounds like a publicity by Shell stunt to gain favour with the wider public. Call me a skeptic!
I read that it takes roughly 3 times as much electricity to produce the equivalent amount of hydrogen to then produce the same energy at the wheel as what electricity does. I can't recall the exact wording, but the bottom line was that it was a very inefficient process, so the electrolysis would have to use renewable energy fear of creating more greenhouse gas emissions.
 
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